I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[Supersnow845]

As a question to all, what would be an example of a good change made by an expansion to a job?




With different summons it means different mechanics in each one and whilst there is only 1 free GCD slot in the whole rotation, you can argue Enkindle does nothing in the gem summons, so there could be something there and Gemshine/Precious Brilliance does nothing in the Demi phase, so there is potential there as well. They could also draw from past Summoner in executing the Aetherflow attacks build a resource to do something else.

Whether this is the route they go or not is a different question entirely, but the potential for something else is still there.

The thing is what different mechanics, as of right now the only thing that distinguishes the 3 current primals is movement, if they release the three new ones and ramuh has long casts and shiva is all instants then ramuh becomes purple ifrit and shiva becomes blue titan, distinguishing on astral flow really isn’t enough because none of the primals are built around astral flow being their core mechanic (maybe titan could claim this), you don’t have to build towards astral flow, astral flow is disconnected from gemshine spam, it’s really there to fill GCD’s to reduce how much pure ruin 3 you are spamming

As for gemshine in the Demi phase I wouldn’t say that’s impossible, but again it really doesn’t change much, and if they intend to make the job 1-2 with gemshine and ruin 3 then why isn’t it like that already considering old phenoix already had that, but let’s say they did that, would the job really feel or play any differently

As for jobs I would argue got good changes, if you specifically want EW then I would say paradox, paradox was a fantastic addition (surprise surprise it’s on BLM), it changes the way you interact with each of your lines, opens up new line opportunities and also doubles as a movement tool, you can even create whole free movement rotations around spamming paradox, that one skill alone completely evolved how you can interact with BLM

If we go back further I’d argue what HW added to WHM was fantastic, WHM always struggled against SCH in ARR because SCH could more easily abuse cleric stance, giving WHM 3 oGCD’s that each have a different function and also buffed WHM’s damage quite significantly is an example of a change where they knew exactly what was wrong with a job and made simple changes to it that completely changed how you interact with it as a job

In comparison shiva replacing Garuda just feels like VFX changes

[Deceptus]

If they wanted to meaningfully change MCH they would either need to change the hypercharge window or change the 1-2-3 filler, because otherwise you are really just tinkering around the edges with an oGCD or two; this is exactly why I have zero faith in SMN doing anything special because that’s exactly what they did, added chainsaw which you just dump in the wildfire window

Machinist has a lot of areas for improvement.

First and foremost, Auto Crossbow not reflecting Richocet but Head Blast does is really confusing. The single target version should reduce cd on the ST skill, AoE skill should reduce AoE skill. Seems pretty straightforward.

Flamethrower is completely useless in 99.9% of content. Perhaps balance it so it consumes 5 heat charges to put a hefty dot on enemies. That way you can rotate Auto Crossbow and Flamethrower on AoE packs

Need some sort of AoE dump for the Battery Gauge for Dungeons. Battery Discharge lightning or something. IDK.

Wildfire needs to auto crit or DH Crit. It has a hefty CD (120s) and it's damage is laughable for that CD duration.

Second Wind as an ability sucks. Period. A health potion does more healing.. The addition of Hyper potion makes Second Wind's healing amount and CD laughable.

[Supersnow845]

Machinist has a lot of areas for improvement.

First and foremost, Auto Crossbow not reflecting Richocet but Head Blast does is really confusing. The single target version should reduce cd on the ST skill, AoE skill should reduce AoE skill. Seems pretty straightforward.

Flamethrower is completely useless in 99.9% of content. Perhaps balance it so it consumes 5 heat charges to put a hefty dot on enemies. That way you can rotate Auto Crossbow and Flamethrower on AoE packs

Need some sort of AoE dump for the Battery Gauge for Dungeons. Battery Discharge lightning or something. IDK.

Wildfire needs to auto crit or DH Crit. It has a hefty CD (120s) and it's damage is laughable for that CD duration.

Second Wind as an ability sucks. Period. A health potion does more healing.. The addition of Hyper potion makes Second Wind's healing amount and CD laughable.

That’s kinda exactly what I’m saying, let’s say you implemented every change suggested, MCH functionally doesn’t change at all in single target (they just do more damage due to wildfire changes and flamethrower will just get thrown in the wildfire window like chainsaw already did)

AOE I agree MCH is a mess and needs like 019286810491758248 changes to but we know the devs don’t really balance around AOE, but I do like the changes you presented

[Aldath]

That’s kinda exactly what I’m saying, let’s say you implemented every change suggested, MCH functionally doesn’t change at all in single target (they just do more damage due to wildfire changes and flamethrower will just get thrown in the wildfire window like chainsaw already did)

AOE I agree MCH is a mess and needs like 019286810491758248 changes to but we know the devs don’t really balance around AOE, but I do like the changes you presented

Another change I would suggest is getting rid of three buttons for combo. Some classes like SAM and NIN need separate combo presses, not ours. Just make it so 1 turns into 2 then into 3, it's less button bloat, no one uses 2 and 3 on their own.

[Renathras]

...

Three points:

1) Have you ever considered your own way of posting is the reason we don't get along? As I point out, you frequently interpret (or outright imagine) me saying things I didn't. Then become very antagonistic. Have you considered you may be a part of the problem, not just me?

2) In line with the above, you say stuff like you "functionally" got no argument from me, despite me presenting arguments, my reasoning in support of them, and instead of addressing them, you just insist I didn't give any. Have you any idea how frustrating it is to present arguments just for someone to say "no you didn't"?

3) Regardless of the above: Sounds like we agree in all but words: There's room for SMN to grow, it isn't a dead end, it just won't be what you want, and you consider that the changes you don't want are somehow not changes, but we both agree the Job will have some changes because every Job always does in every expansion. At this point, it's just stubbornness, but I don't care to chase it down anymore.

Also: No, I did not take it as "it physically cannot change at all". I'm saying that it will change, yes, but I'm saying that it isn't a "dead end" since it can be built on and built out in various ways. Again, whether or not the Devs do this is an open question, but that's not an issue with the Job itself. We could make this argument about any other Job in the game, so that's not something fair to hit SMN with specifically since it's just as true of any other Job.

This is literally a binary isn’t it?

In an absolute sense, yes. That's what I mean: Literally every Job both has room for growth and will grow and change in some at least small way. Some may not change much, but every one changes at least a bit just from potency changes, a second charge on something, and some new level capstone ability.

Will SMN get afforded that same luxury?

With...who, though?

The people who already dislike SMN likely won't be mollified by anything short of pretty significant changes, and the people who enjoy SMN right now likely don't want big changes and will cheer only some minor QOL or fun button.

I don't disagree SE needs to expand their Job design teams...like two expansions ago, probably. But if DT lands and SMN just has a few upgrades, a new trio of "coat of paint" Primals, and some minor tweak ability (e.g. a oGCD that allows using a Primal without burning a Lego to do so, or one that ends your Primal's phase early, burning the remainder of it as damage sorta like ending Lilybell early does for healing, or Physic being shifted to base on INT, etc), the people that love SMN will probably...eat it up and be quite happy. The people that would be ugly with those changes are already ugly on SMN now, are they not?

[Supersnow845]

^

1) how long are you going to milk that one time we disagreed on the wider interpretation of how someone else said something, I’m not going back to the “I didn’t say the sky wasn’t blue I said the sky was green” with you because as you apparently still haven’t figured out I don’t like bringing baggage from old conversations into new ones, something that you apparently adore doing, is it not strange that everyone you seem to have a problem with gets along fine with with other and with others but not you, take the poster above who disagreed with me but didn’t do it rudely and I answered them, I also don’t agree with your supposed shortlist of enemies half the time, I think shur’s idea of making holy single target relevant is bad, I don’t really love how most of the healer forum likes AST’s burst heavy APM that punishes controllers, Reiner would rather deep dungeons be deleted than ever see another one which I disagree with. Yet somehow the problem always comes back to you, and I’m not the only one who pretty much only has posting problems with you, am I partially the problem, probably, I speak overly verbose and consider hyperbole just a form of expression which is something that grates you but I’m not the only one who seems to only have problems with you

2) besides that argument you made in the above in response to Sebazy (which I actually think is a good idea that is a good evolution of SMN, I just don’t think they will do it) your arguments have consisted of
A) the new primals
B) using actual aspected ruin 3 in the primal phase
I’ve explained how I don’t see either of those as meaningful changes and also explained if you do see them as meaningful changes then more power to you (no matter how many times you bring up my original quote about SMN being at a dead end this doesn’t change), posts 3, 4 and 5 were arguments about how I worded my own argument

3) this is the crux of it, if you truly believe we agree in all but the way we phrase it then why are you still arguing with me, have you noticed 9 arguments out of 10 with me end with you saying “we agree more than I thought I just hate the way you phrase things” more or less. You know you hate the way I phrase things and you know I hate you argue with the way I phrase things rather than arguing my point, if you disagree with my semantics ignore them, I never critique the way you write (only the length it takes you to reach a point)

[Shurrikhan]

Machinist has a lot of areas for improvement.

First and foremost, Auto Crossbow not reflecting Richocet but Head Blast does is really confusing. The single target version should reduce cd on the ST skill, AoE skill should reduce AoE skill. Seems pretty straightforward.

I much prefer it the way it is, leading to the back and forth weaving instead of only weaving on every other Heat Blast reduced-GCD.

Having a purely AoE or purely ST skill can be more "straightforward", sure, but it also means that each key becomes pointless bloat in the opposite situation. Heat Blast having Richochet CDR at least gives it, even if not necessary with sufficient tuning yet, to act as a situational means of focus target damage without necessarily being pointless in AoE.
(Much like Scattergun could, if the value of Heat were greater, Heat's consumption more flexible, and/or uptime were less consistently abundant, see some rare situational use in single-target due to its higher Heat generation.)

Flamethrower is completely useless in 99.9% of content. Perhaps balance it so it consumes 5 heat charges to put a hefty dot on enemies. That way you can rotate Auto Crossbow and Flamethrower on AoE packs

Need some sort of AoE dump for the Battery Gauge for Dungeons. Battery Discharge lightning or something. IDK.

I'd dig these. Sure. Sounds good.

Wildfire needs to auto crit or DH Crit. It has a hefty CD (120s) and it's damage is laughable for that CD duration.

Remember that making it an auto-crit is, in effect, just a higher potency but preventing the skill from critting. Do you really want both of those changes, or do you really just want to siphon potency from elsewhere and towards Wildfire.

And what % of total damage would seem more appropriate to you? It does around 4.5% of your total damage already despite being seeing only one cast per 2 minutes. Despite having double the number of casts, our level 90 capstone (Chainsaw) usually pulls off only 6% or less of total damage. Only Automaton Queen is stronger per-button-press than Wildfire.

Unless you're advocating for outright MCH buffs despite its being the leading Ranger until over the 80th percentile (which, may be a decent-ish indication that it's easier and/or more reliable to get near to its full value out of than Bard or Dancer)... that added Wildfire damage has to come from somewhere. Atop which a skill's damage feeling "laughable" is... generally a relative matter; it's what seems to hit harder.

:: If you just wanted for Wildfire's damage itself to 'look' bigger, one easy solution would be for it to reduce your damage to that target while the debuff is up before doing that much more damage in the final explosion (e.g., as an AoE, so there's an actual mechanical advantage in that gimmick). The total damage would be identical in single-target (and higher if adds spawn before Wildfire goes off), but you'd have a big number on Wildfire's explosion.

Second Wind as an ability sucks. Period. A health potion does more healing.. The addition of Hyper potion makes Second Wind's healing amount and CD laughable.

While this is in no way unique to MCH, so I'm not sure why it's coming up here... What would be your preference here, then? Just to scrap it as button bloat and require people to bring potions instead? To nerf those potions? To buff Second Wind? What's the more fitting state of its use/balance?

[Renathras]

...

Ohh, so we're doing...this...now?

1) I'm not the one milking anything. You've led off several of your posts of late with "You wonder why people do X to you, maybe it's because you...", I'm just pointing out that could be true of you. I wasn't actually referring to anything. Guilty conscience...?

2) No, but it's pointless to try and convince you otherwise.

3) I'm not still arguing with you. Point 3 was me saying "fine, whatever, close enough; this is an approximation of agreement so moving on since there's no point trying to hammer out the specifics as you won't concede them, so this is close enough for government work".

EDIT:

Oh, edit to say one more thing; something I "adore" doing? I HATE doing it. It's why I DON'T do it. I've done it ONCE of late, specifically when someone else did it, by way of counterpoint, not to drag the people in question. YOU, on the other hand, adore doing it, considering how often you bring up your admonishment about me "not understanding why" people react. I suspect I already have an answer to that question, but it's a different answer than yours.

No, I hate it. I would rather people stop doing it, then it wouldn't have to happen at all. If you haven't noticed, I never do it unprovoked. But for someone not wanting to bring up dirty laundry, you mention in here unbidden. Clearly you aren't so averse as you say...

[Supersnow845]

Okay I well and truly give up, I’ve tried to debate you, I’ve tried to politely tell you why people don’t like interacting with you, I’ve tried to even be snarky with you to see if that will get through to you but no absolutely nothing gets through to you

Continue seeing me as some enemy that is the cause of all your forum woes, at this point I take it as a badge of honour

I’m done I give you express permission in the future for anyone to quote this post if I reply to ren again to tell me to not do that

[Renathras]

I don't.

I genuinely don't see you as "the enemy".

Perhaps that's the problem, as I said - you think that I think things which I do not.