I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[Raven2014]

I agree that they need a complete tear-down, it's just given their track record with even just reworks doesn't give me much faith that they'll actually do a good job with it or expand on it much mechanically.

I don't really like current summoner, it goes without saying that I think Shadowbringers or Stormblood were the best installments (outside of pets dying in combat), but it still feels fresh despite its glaring issues.

If say, despite my usual consistent bitching about DRK when possible, if it got a complete tear-down and was given it's own combat identity, I'd be less frustrated and might have more ideas on how to expand upon that rather than looking at it now and just seeing that its old iteration with Shadowbringer QoL would be pretty solid and trying to find a middle ground.

That's why I'm reserving my judgement about SMN until the next expansion. A complete tear down is something they have never done before, and unlike MCH it looks more like they have an actual intend for the class. Regardless of what one may feel about the new SMN, the changed had made a SMN a lot more popular (and again, statistic matter more than feeling). That proved that the first step was the correct and necessary decision, so the question now is how they're going forward with it. And like I said, start low enough and the only way to go is up.

The reason I mentioned MNK and AST specifically because they're the worst offender to me ATM.

- MNK has gotten the point where you can develop cabal tunnel playing it, so I feel any more development/tunning to Grease Lighting is a dead end. It also already has a weird arse rotation that only gonna get either weirder, or normalized to be the same as other jobs.
- AST still has a lot artifact lingering from the original design when it was a go between WHM and SCH, those has to go. The card system has been getting worse with each iteration that I don't think they can adjust it any more, but re-do the concept.

Basically these two classes I can't imagine any new change/addition to them that won't make the worse instead of better. So I rather suffer one expansion where they get stripped down to the bone then rebuilt.

[Supersnow845]

That's why I'm reserving my judgement about SMN until the next expansion. A complete tear down is something they have never done before, and unlike MCH it looks more like they have an actual intend for the class. Regardless of what one may feel about the new SMN, the changed had made a SMN a lot more popular (and again, statistic matter more than feeling). That proved that the first step was the correct and necessary decision, so the question now is how they're going forward with it. And like I said, start low enough and the only way to go is up.

The reason I mentioned MNK and AST specifically because they're the worst offender to me ATM.

- MNK has gotten the point where you can develop cabal tunnel playing it, so I feel any more development/tunning to Grease Lighting is a dead end. It also already has a weird arse rotation that only gonna get either weirder, or normalized to be the same as other jobs.
- AST still has a lot artifact lingering from the original design when it was a go between WHM and SCH, those has to go. The card system has been getting worse with each iteration that I don't think they can adjust it any more, but re-do the concept.

Basically these two classes I can't imagine any new change/addition to them that won't make the worse instead of better. So I rather suffer one expansion where they get stripped down to the bone then rebuilt.

Have you looked at monk in like 2 expansions, greased lightning is gone, modern MNK is one of the best designed classes in the game

[Aravell]

I feel all of these answers are missing the point I'm trying. Rather you guys are just leaning on what I said as a convenience way to beat on a dead horse that had been beaten to zombie. If anything, these replies further prove my point more than anything. None of the jobs mentioned had a complete tear down and re-imagination like SMN did. Had instead of remaking the old SMN, the new SMN was introduced as a new job I don't think anyone would have blink. The job was "fundamentally" changed. Whether all of the job "rework" are still just more or less adjusted/tackled on/patched up on the same foundation.

Again, the fact you all insist SE has been doing a bad job with these classes, that just re-enforce my point that maybe they all need a complete tear down like SMN.

If you want an example of a complete tear down and rebuild of mechanics, I'd like to point you to MCH. What did MCH get from ShB to EW? One extra use on cooldown button and a new finisher on their robot pet. Do you see why people have no faith they'd do anything great with SMN or any other job they tore down?

[Raven2014]

Have you looked at monk in like 2 expansions, greased lightning is gone, modern MNK is one of the best designed classes in the game

No it's not. (I played MNK during the first tier of this expansion). They just remove the stack management (which was never the issue) and make it into a passive trait, the effect is still there. The change in effect is just a QoL change, not a fundamental change to the system. The point is you can't make MNK any faster without making it almost impossible to play. I also played it extensively toward the end of ShB. That ridiculous speed is what made MNK super fun in Borza and DR when you do casual content, in raid ... not so much. I remember when the 4th tier of Grease Lighting was added, the most common reaction was "really, does mnk really need that?".

About it being the best class ... hey, people have different taste but I'll say this. You're the first person I've seen with that claim, and I know a few people playing MNK at high level.

If you want an example of a complete tear down and rebuild of mechanics, I'd like to point you to MCH. What did MCH get from ShB to EW? One extra use on cooldown button and a new finisher on their robot pet. Do you see why people have no faith they'd do anything great with SMN or any other job they tore down?

I already addressed this point a couple times with my reply. To recap for your reading pleasure, the different between SMN and MCH are:

- MCH never seem to have an actual design vision outside of its original 3.0 appearance. The new SMN feels like it actually has a long term vision.

- The complete tear down of the 3.0 MCH was done as an emergency rather than as a per-determined plan. All the "fixes" and "remades" done are all based on the emergency 4.0 foundation. If I have to sump up MCH's change each expansion, it would be: let's add some cool animations and hope that enough for the players to over look it flaw. Even then, the 3.0 to 4.0 change of MCH is still a lot less radical comparing to the 5.0 to 6.0 SMN.

In short, they need to "re-imagine" what MCH is, instead of focusing on this "cooler is better" mindset. You can try to tie MCH or any other class to the SMN as you want. But I'll maintain that SMN is something they have never done before.

[VentVanitas]

No it's not. (I played MNK during the first tier of this expansion). They just remove the stack management (which was never the issue) and make it into a passive trait, the effect is still there. The change in effect is just a QoL change, not a fundamental change to the system. The point is you can't make MNK any faster without making it almost impossible to play. I also played it extensively toward the end of ShB. That ridiculous speed is what made MNK super fun in Borza and DR when you do casual content, in raid ... not so much. I remember when the 4th tier of Grease Lighting was added, the most common reaction was "really, does mnk really need that?".

About it being the best class ... hey, people have different taste but I'll say this. You're the first person I've seen with that claim, and I know a few people playing MNK at high level.

why would they make MNK faster? the job has always generally operated at around ~1.9s GCD and I doubt 7.0 is gonna change that. but no, MNK isn't reaching its "limit" when it comes to future additions/changes, far from it. it still has so many dead skills that are easy grounds for changes, then there's the whole mess that is Chakra.

there is literally zero reason to go nuclear on the job, not when they already reworked it and gave it systems that are ripe for future additions like Blitz.

[Aravell]

I already addressed this point a couple times with my reply. To recap for your reading pleasure, the different between SMN and MCH are:

- MCH never seem to have an actual design vision outside of its original 3.0 appearance. The new SMN feels like it actually has a long term vision.

- The complete tear down of the 3.0 MCH was done as an emergency rather than as a per-determined plan. All the "fixes" and "remades" done are all based on the emergency 4.0 foundation. If I have to sump up MCH's change each expansion, it would be: let's add some cool animations and hope that enough for the players to over look it flaw. Even then, the 3.0 to 4.0 change of MCH is still a lot less radical comparing to the 5.0 to 6.0 SMN.

In short, they need to "re-imagine" what MCH is, instead of focusing on this "cooler is better" mindset. You can try to tie MCH or any other class to the SMN as you want. But I'll maintain that SMN is something they have never done before.

You can dismiss the comparison if you want, but the same thing could very easily be applied to SMN. Can you say for sure that they have a long term vision for SMN beyond "make more summoner and less warlock"? Unless the dev team shows they have a concrete plan, they will continue to be judged upon other reworks they've done before.

[Renathras]

The problem is new SMN is all filler phase,

I extremely disagree with this.

I suppose it depends on what one considers "filler", but I consider Ruin 3 to be the filler in the Job, and you use it 1-2 times per minute, which is an extremely small amount of filler. This seems akin to saying that Fire IV and Flare are "filler" on BLM, or that RDM's melee combo and burst phase are filler. I don't feel like that's an at all fair assessment.

You stop casting "aspected Ruin" by 72 at the latest. Again, you don't call Blizzard III "aspected Blizzard I", do you?

I read comments like this and like this bit from Roe:

I'm not entirely sure how much it'd help with the 'boredom' aspect, but I'd imagine it'd be way more 'visually hype' if the summoning of a demiprimal gave you an aspect of their body for the duration of their 'trance',

...and I have to say; this is what unrealistic expectations look like. Not to mention divorced from any prior incarnation of Summoner.

Until FF16 (which people are saying was unpopular and not well received), was there every any case of a Summoner taking on body parts of their Summons? The only think I can think of in that same ballpark is Terra's trance from FF6, but she was half-Esper, so that was just her body partly transitioning into her Esper form (or what she'd likely have been if she had been born full Esper instead of half Esper, half Human). This expectation makes no sense to me.

And likewise, on what way are Crimson Strike and Mountain Buster "aspected Ruin 3"? Topaz and Emerald Rite aren't in any way like Ruin 3, either. Ruby only is in the sense it has a cast time, too. Again, this is like saying all BLM spells and Jolt/Verfire/Verstone are just aspected Ruin 3, which just isn't fair and isn't a claim anyone would argue. I don't feel that's a realistic standard.

(Not to mention I'd really really HATE this: Summoners in Final Fantasy are not about augmenting their body parts with Eidolons. That sounds like what the bad guys in FF games would do, though; and sorta what the bad guys did in FF6 to a point with that whole drain the Summons for power thing. BLU already does that some, and that's fine, but nothing about "take on Eidolon body parts when you cast spells" says "Summoner", as no FF summoners I can think of ever have. Dominants are not Summoners in the normal sense...or at all, really, as they ARE the Eidolons, more or less.)

I think the popularity of the SMN's rework (data matter, not opinion) will probably encourage SE to try and do similar thing to other jobs. After all, you can't just leave a job mostly the same from expansion to expansion. And if it has become so convoluted to make new change, it's better to hit the reset button so you have room to grown in the future.

I don't outright disagree with this, but I also don't agree with it. There are always niches, and there's always something to add, upgrade, etc from a Job. Some Jobs have had reworks because they were just...well...a mess before. MCH and SMN before the rework were both real messes. Yes, some people loved them, but that doesn't change the fact they were not well designed and not aging well. Conversely, RDM has been pretty unchanged since it was introduced; ShB just added another spell to the end and a Ruin 2 movement tool, and EW added a party mit and...another spell on the end (and changed Acceleration to work better). The flow of the Job in general is unchanged, and the basic theory behind it is unchanged other than optimization for burst (since you can fit in more of it within your mana since 50/50 is all you need instead of 80/80 or whatever it was before), which...just also devalued Reprise, but it was already something you tried to avoid anyway. BLM has gotten QOL, but the Job itself, unless you're doing the insane Paradox "instant casts for weeks" craziness, still has the same general core and flow.

So there are a lot of Jobs that haven't been changed much, or that don't need changing.

They may - emphasis on may - in the future do some across the board reset, but I would wager that would come with something like a level squish (if they do one) rather than just "let's make BLM into SMN". Especially since, as people are fond of pointing out, Yoshi P likes BLM and likely wouldn't support it being "dumbed down". And I think on some level there's a recognition that it's good to have complex AND simple Jobs both.

[Renathras]

Have you looked at monk in like 2 expansions, greased lightning is gone, modern MNK is one of the best designed classes in the game

Uh......

Agree to disagree.

I know we disagree on a lot, but this is one of those most glaring cases. I feel MNK is one of the worst designed classes in the game. It's a total mess that completely upends itself. While most Jobs build on themselves, MNK completely changes how it plays. And Greased Lightning still exists; it's not an upkeep buff that falls off during downtime, but the shorter GCD is absolutely still present and clearly what Raven is talking about there.

But ew, no. MNK? No. It's the absolute least played Job in the game right now by every metric I've seen. It's definitely different - and per my norms, I appreciate and encourage that for those that like it - but very clearly it is NOT a hit with the playerbase. One would think the "best designed classes in the game" would be ones a lot of people would play - on account of them being well designed - not avoid like the plague.

I already addressed this point a couple times with my reply. To recap for your reading pleasure, the different between SMN and MCH are:

If you want an example of a complete tear down and rebuild of mechanics, I'd like to point you to MCH. What did MCH get from ShB to EW? One extra use on cooldown button and a new finisher on their robot pet. Do you see why people have no faith they'd do anything great with SMN or any other job they tore down?

To be fair, Aravell isn't wrong on this. MCH - in 5.0 - was a complete tear down and rebuild. And it was, going to your definition of what that entails, Raven, giving MCH a core concept and identity. Before 5.0, it was kind of all over, but with 5.0, they really made it about Hypercharge, Wildfire, and tools (Battery Gauge/Queen as well as Air Anchor/Drill/etc), which is its theme now. FF6 Edgar with Wildfire and a touch of FF8 Irvine's limit break (Hypercharge where you are also throwing out the oGCDs every other GCD there makes me think of Irvine's LB where you spam the triggers and he shoots his guns to that timing, especially the machine gun version).

That said, MCH is in a good state now that they returned Dismantle to it, and is largely a fun Job that is coherent but takes some effort to optimize. Low skill floor, highish skill ceiling. The only issues at this point are some hokey stuff like Wildfire kind of being pushed to the side, Flamethrower still not being that great despite looking cool, and the ping reliance for Hypercharge in a world where stuff like Clemency gets the stack treatment. Still, it has Scattergun, which is just a fun button to hit. *chuckchuck* And...while I'm actually serious about that, I am the rest as well. MCH 5.0-Present is fine and has plenty going on with the gauges and CDs you're actively juggling and rotating through.

I feel like we're getting to the point of the conversation where we're seeing some people just don't want to be pleased. It's one thing to say SMN is bare bones, but to say that everything else is is just...nonsensical.

And one thing that's funny to me in all these conversations; somehow DNC avoids being mentioned, and it's more slimmed down and boring than MCH is. "Tilania optimization" is a total canard that doesn't support that. And not for the first time, I'll say PLD isn't like GNB at all. I'm not even sure how that one persists.

Can you say for sure that they have a long term vision for SMN beyond "make more summoner and less warlock"?

To be fair, imo, that's a FANTASTIC vision to have...

The less like WoW Lock and more like an actual FF Summoner SMN is, the better.

[Aravell]

To be fair, imo, that's a FANTASTIC vision to have...

The less like WoW Lock and more like an actual FF Summoner SMN is, the better.

I'm not disagreeing with the vision. I like the new aesthetics, I'm just pointing out that their vision for SMN may very well end at "make more summoner and less warlock" without anything beyond that, which would be confirmed/debunked when the 7.0 media tour stuff comes out.

[Supersnow845]

My reason for considering SMN all filler phase is because there is no fail state that means you can’t spam aspected ruin 3

Using your example of fire 4 fire 4 has the fail state of your astral fire falling off which means you can no longer cast it; which means you need to juggle paradox (or fire 1 in less than 90 content) and your fire starter procs

SMN meanwhile has no failstate and a predefined number of casts that each phase takes on (including the Demi phases which are only influenced by spell speed)