I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[Renathras]

My reason for considering SMN all filler phase is because there is no fail state that means you can’t spam aspected ruin 3

So your definition of filler is "the rotation that has no failure state"?

Respectfully, that's not a definition of "filler". Filler is that thing we all kind of know what is, but don't have a clear definition. What we can do, though, is see if a given definition DOESN'T work. Yours does not. Example:

GNB 1-2-3 can be performed in the wrong order, such as 1-2-2 or 1-3-3. These would be failure states. You can't spam Royal Authority, as that would be a failure state. So your definition means any 1-2-3 combo is not filler. BUT, 1-2-3 combos are considered by everyone to be filler, thus your definition does not hold.

I think a better definition is one used by the Balance guides, which can be worded as "Actions that occur outside of burst/mini-burst" or "Actions without CDs used in a standard rotation". If you rolled your face across your keyboard, which actions remain not on CD once you're done? What is the correct rotation using those remaining buttons? THAT is your filler.

By this definition, GNB's filler would be "GNB's 1-2-3 combo and using Burst Strike to not overcap Powder Gauge". That is GNB's filler. The No Mercy window is obviously not part of the filler. There's some parsing around whether Gnashing Fang and Blasting Zone constitutes filler or not, but at least that's a more useful definition than "no fail state".

Fire 4 is part of filler: https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/jobs...arget-rotation

The basic BLM filler is Blizard 3, Blizard 4, Paradox, Fire 3, Fire 4, Fire 4, Fire 4, Paradox, Fire 4, Fire 4, Fire 4, Despair, refreshing Thunder 3 as necessary and not overcapping on Xenoglossy.

The basic SMN filler is Summon Titan, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Gemnshine, Astral Flow, Summon Garuda, Gemshine, Gemshine, Gemshine, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Summon Ifrit, Gemshine, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Astral Flow, Ruin 3, Ruin 4...or something thereabouts.

RDM's basic filler is variable in reaction to Stone/Fire Ready procs, but in a general sense would be Jolt->Thunder, Jolt->Aero, repeat until burst ready, and substitute Stone/Fire for Jolt as procs allow, and swap Aero and Thunder as mana requires. This is why people consider RDM to be very easy to pick up because the filler is really straightforward (and so is the burst).

Bahamut, Pheonix, Enkindle, Energy Drain, Fester, are all considered cooldowns, and so aren't really a part of filler.

Though we can argue about the extent of filler, "Thing you do when everything is on CD" is probably the general definition that most people subscribe to. "no fail state" is not a possible definition of filler, as it would mean that even basic 1-2-3 combos, which everyone recognizes as filler, aren't filler under that definition.

And you really need to stop saying "aspected ruin 3". There's no such thing presently. It's one of those things people say because it makes their argument sound stronger, but again, "aspected Fire 1" isn't a proper definition for Fire 4, and no one would accept it as one. You can call it "Gemshine", but stop calling it "aspected ruin 3". Unless you're ready to start calling Fire 4 "aspected Fire 1".

[OgruMogru]

Blm filler are thundercloud procs, xeno and paradox while you wait for mp ticks in UI not... their entire rotation lmao

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The jobs in ffxiv are designed with different complexity and difficulty build in them.
I guess you could play all jobs at very basic level..
The issue is you would do terrible low dmg..because those jobs do very low dmg if not played correct..
Anyway your average player wouldn't know if he/she playing the job wrong in the first place.

In casual content where dps checks are either nihil or incredibly low, doing shitty dps really doesn’t matter. They will still clear that eventually. So why care?

[Renathras]

Blm filler are thundercloud procs, xeno and paradox while you wait for mp ticks in UI not... their entire rotation lmao

Generally, "filler rotation" is the term; yes, that would include the entire standard rotation. That's how filler is normally defined.

And procs can't be part of "filler" by definition since they aren't always available to fill with.

An example would be PLD having a filler rotation of 1-2-3-Atonement-A-A-Holy Spirit. That's their "entire rotation lmao", but it also happens to be their filler.

Tell me, what would you define PLD's "filler" as? If "entire rotation" isn't allowed, what's the "filler"?

It's not Atonement, since you can't use that until you complete a 1-2-3 combo. While Holy Spirit CAN be used AS a filler unbuffed, this is a DPS loss. So what is PLD's "filler", in your own words? I would like to know that so I can determine what BLM's "filler" is by your definition.

WAR's filler rotation is 1-2-3 (Storm's Path) with Storm's Eye to refresh your self-buff. That's its "entire rotation lmao". "entire rotation" excluding burst kind of IS the definition of filler.

So, a comparison:

Right, but Snow's definition was:

The problem is new SMN is all filler phase, even the Demi’s

I would say (as I did above) that the Primals and their Gemshine/Astral Flow would constitute the filler, just like BLM's B3, B4, Pdox, F3, F4, F4, F4, Pdox, F4, F4, F4, Desp is its filler. Laryzur felt that there was "basically no filler" since ShB SMN's filler was Ruin 3, and you only use one of those per minute (occasionally 2 to reset or due to spell speed shenanigans), but I would include the rotational Primal "mini-phases" as filler for the purposes of this definition. They are the parallel to, say, WAR/PLD/etc's 1-2-3 rotation and associated stuff (like Atonement/Holy Spirit on PLD).

Though I would argue that a lot of players find the Primal summons more satisfying than Royal Authority.

Exactly, other classes that have “spammy” burst phases both have fail states and build towards something (or in DRK’s case has 10,000 oGCD’s) SMN has none of these options, you physically cannot fail it’s rotation short of dying because SMN has no fail state

Again, "fail state" is not a valid definition of filler. Besides which, there are fail states. Start casting Ruby Rite and have to interrupt due to movement. That's a fail state. Cast two Ruin 3s at the end of the minute and drop Ruin 4. That's a fail state. "no fail state" seems like a very unworkable definition for the concept of "filler".

You don’t generally see them on tanks and healers

I don't think this is really true. WAR dropping Storm's Eye or WHM dropping Dia are technically fail states. WAR pressing 1-2-2 or 1-3 or overcapping on Rage are fail states. And those are just their rotational fail states. Failing to heal unavoidable damage and having players KO is also a fail state. The issue is that "fail state" can be defined...very broadly. Even if we're just talking rotational, though, Healers and (moreso, generally) Tanks also have fail states. The main difference is that their fail states are going to be less detrimental to DPS than damage dealer fail states. Which...kinda makes sense.

I’m pretty sure they were building on my point from the previous page where I answered rens assertion that “aspected ruin 3 isn’t filler” with the point that it was because SMN doesn’t have a fail state

Again, bad definition, but even there, SMN does have fail states.

I don’t understand how someone can’t see its ruin 3 in all but name.

I'm not trying to be pedantic but...because it's not ruin 3.

Is Atonement on Paladin Fast Blade? or Riot Blade? or Royal Authority? Is it "Fast Blade in all but name"? It has different use conditions, and it does have strategic gameplay, albeit thin. Same with SMN. People generally don't DO IT, but say you pop Ifrit and suddenly realize you're about to have to move. You can cast your Ruin 3 (shorter cast) and then use your minute's Ruin 4 (for the full movement GCD) to move. Or if you use Ruby Rite x2 but then have to stay at a distance from the boss (had this happen with ZodEx when he does his diagonal dash across the screen - bad time to use Ifrit's charge). You can 100% push that by filling with Ruin 4 and Ruin 3 and THEN, after the mechanic, use your Ifrit charge/slam combo. Go into Titan and use 1-2-1-2- realize you're going to need movement for GCD 6 or so from now; fill in with Ruin 3 before finishing up Titan. Again, people generally don't DO IT, but you can move your absolute filler spell (Ruin 3) anywhere in your rotation except between Ifrit's charge and slam specifically.

And for the love of god, not everything needs to build gauge. I feel Job Gauge additions were a curse the game has never fully recovered from.

No that's what leveling is for, current SMN should not exist period.

Disagree. I don't quite agree with Zeastria that we explicitly need Jobs for people not good at mmos (though that's not a terrible idea), but Jobs of all kinds of difficulty levels and damage types (DoTs, gauges, upkeep buffs, flexible rotations like SMN and PLD, etc) is 100% something that should exist.

Current SMN should exist period.

[Renathras]

sure, but EW SMN came at the cost of what was generally perceived to be a difficult job with no similar alternative for what it offered. the alienation is inexcusable.

I think this is the problem, though:

People hate on new SMN when what they really hate is old SMN being gone. Then make absolute statements like the above "current SMN should not exist" which aren't defensible.

Being upset old SMN is gone is absolutely understandable. I do sincerely hope they add a new Caster with old SMN's type of gameplay.

...but that's no argument against CURRENT SMN being a good Job.

Current SMN is a very well designed Job. It's one of the few in the game that "read your tooltips" is actually good advice (instead of "read an online guide") to learn how to play it.

There are no hard jobs in this game…

Only hard jobs to optimize.

This, on the other hand, I think is just wrong.

While difficulty is different for different people...no, there are hard Jobs in this game. There are some Jobs that have pretty high skill floors and very wide ranges between a 1% and 99%. Generally speaking, a Job's difficulty can be roughly approximated by the width between 1% and 99%, or 25% and 75%. The wider that bar is, when compared to the other Jobs within the role, the harder the Job is. Yes, there are some hard Jobs in this game. There are ALSO hard to optimize Jobs. RDM is not a hard Job, but it IS hard to optimize.

"There are no hard jobs" is a weird flex, but isn't reflective of reality.

And yet people managed to do Titan Hardmode for their relic with far more latency and far less understanding of the game and it's intricacies.

Not everyone did Titan Hardmode and got Relics when that was current content. Not to mention the game itself was far more lenient. Titan Hard back then, if it was released today, would be considered a braindead Trial by modern standards.

so smn is popular and thats bad? and your fix is to make is harder so no one wants to play it so that they will be forced to play other hard classes when they just want a easy class to enjoy the game on?

do you people hear yourselves?

yeah its good to have hard classes for people taht like that , but we need easy classes for those that like that too, and even if one type is more popular than the other doesn't mean you are wrong for liking one or the other..

This. /thread

If SMN was a new class and old SMN still existed then nobody would have a problem

I would love to believe this.

But it's not true.

How do I know? Every discussion of healers insisting that they all need to be harder, even SGE which was just introduced with the playstyle it has right now. The people saying outright that new SMN itself is a badly designed Job and must be changed no matter what. People saying new SMN is hurting RDM and BLM representation (RDM moreso).

Those arguments wouldn't go away just because old SMN was still in the game.

I very much DO wish to believe if new SMN was introduced as a new Job, people would be fine with it. But I don't think so. I think a lot of the people complaining about it being too easy, it harming RDM's representation, it being "badly designed", and at least some people (if not including you) arguing about fail states; I think those people would still be harping on new SMN even if it had been introduced as a stand alone Job.

[OgruMogru]

So you're just incorrectly substituting the word "rotation" with "filler"? Quote from the blm balance page you linked above says "In order to get enough MP to sustain the standard rotation, two MP ticks are required. For this purpose, at least two spells are needed in Umbral Ice to act as “filler” spells." So why would they need to differentiate between rotation and filler if they were interchangeable? Can't answer your question on PLD as I don't play it but I'm sure someone else will chomp down on that bait and correct you.

[Supersnow845]

Filler doesn’t have to not have a fail state, SMN just feels like all filler because it has no fail state and it’s burst cannot be made to fail by doing the actual filler wrong

This is to say nothing of the core point about how the primals get reduced to filler that amounts to casting aspected ruin 3 and then the demis which are technically the burst don’t even care about the primals and they are also just about spamming aspected ruin 3

[Renathras]

So you're just incorrectly substituting the word "rotation" with "filler"? Quote from the blm balance page you linked above says "In order to get enough MP to sustain the standard rotation, two MP ticks are required. For this purpose, at least two spells are needed in Umbral Ice to act as “filler” spells." So why would they need to differentiate between rotation and filler if they were interchangeable? Can't answer your question on PLD as I don't play it but I'm sure someone else will chomp down on that bait and correct you.

Ah, I see you didn't answer my question:

Tell me, what would you define PLD's "filler" as? If "entire rotation" isn't allowed, what's the "filler"?

...because you don't play PLD. Fair enough, so let's try something else:

What would you define WAR's filler as?
Or MNK's?
Or SAM's?

Do you play any Jobs other than BLM, and what would you define their fillers as?

If you don't...then all I can say is your definition is wrong and you need to try some other Jobs so you can see why. I have dabbled with every Job in the game and know the fillers for about half of them. My definition is consistent across them. So tell me what you define the fillers on for the Jobs you play other than BLM and we'll work from there?

EDIT:

Filler doesn’t have to not have a fail state, SMN just feels like all filler because it has no fail state and it’s burst cannot be made to fail by doing the actual filler wrong

Uh...that......doesn't make any sense.

"filler doesn't have to not have a fail state"
"SMN having no fail state means it's all filler".

You can't say filler is NOT defined by fail state, but then use no fail state as a definition right after. Regardless, it doesn't feel like filler to me, so now we're in absolute subjective territory.

You might notice I was using objective metrics to define filler, which is how you have to define things. Filler isn't a matter of "feel', otherwise the term has no meaning.

.

What I'm trying to get at is "What are practical NON-Summoner cases of filler (for the purpose of definitions) to you guys", that way I can see if SMN's rotation actually fits your definition of filler or not.

That is, I need to see what you guys consider "filler" in other Jobs to see if that matches (a) the general community definition of filler (e.g. includes 1-2-3 basic rotations) and (b) how that would apply to SMN since...I think some people are a BIIIIT of a TAAAD (or more than a bit and more than a tad) biased against SMN and not looking at it fairly... <_<

[Supersnow845]

Okay I’ll present this in the simplest way possible

Garuda/titan/ifrit are the filler, they consist of doing exactly the same thing, casting aspected ruin 3, the slight different in mobility is functionally meaningless, Bahamut and pheonix and the burst and sub burst, they consist of doing……..guess what casting aspected ruin 3, when the burst is exactly the same as the filler it all feels like filler, and it all feels even worse because you physically cannot do SMN wrong, it has no fail state, that doesn’t define it being filler, it’s the fact that a rotation with no fail state feels like filler because you aren’t building towards anything

[Renathras]

Okay I’ll present this in the simplest way possible

Garuda/titan/ifrit are the filler,

Nonono, that wasn't my question.

Can you tell me what you define as filler for OTHER JOBS that you are familiar with which ARE NOT Summoner, please?