Increase the Skill Floor for Dungeons Next Expansion

[HyperiusUltima]

So, for those who are already in disagreement saying "No, let's not" when XIV has catered to Casual Players far more than usual since Shadowbringers, I'm here to remind you that the game has reached a state where your veterans are feeling left out of consideration when it comes to the content loop - people who do more challenging content like Savage, Ultimate, Criterion, and so on; even challenging themselves.

We've been left out of the content loop for too long and it's starting to harm the playerbase because when you finish the Story to current patch, people are going to ask:

"Where's my content?"

Others will point to Raids, Optional Trials and Alliance Raids, and thus people will be intimidated because out of all the 8-man and 24-man(yes, 24-man) content there is, Casuals will not want to do it because it's outside of their comfort zone - which is the simple 4-man dungeon and 8-man Story Trial aside from the very simple and heavily iLv synced Crystal Tower series required for 5.3.

How do we get them to come out of their box? Trying to invite them to try it seems well enough, but when they get the impression of "it's too hard for me" it becomes a hard sell and they drop.

The same goes for if it's too grindy or boring - subjective to each person. Eureka could be grindy, in particular - and Bozja could be the same. Island Sanctuary DEFINITELY goes under that category since it's basically Island Simulator.

What we need is content that is actually middle-of-the-road: A bit more challenging to where wipes can happen, but not to the point where it's so hard that it's akin to Savage. The Battle Team seems to have shown they do not know where that point is, and I think it's important in battle design to be able to run that fine line between what's difficult and what isn't - and it's also a matter of helping people understand they have utilities they can use.

For instance, in Casual content Healers barely need to even heal anymore to make it through dungeons in Endwalker(they can even be non-existent). If you increased the Skill Floor for the dungeon of say, The Aetherfont, you'd have enemies with higher HP, higher damage output, and probably a couple more mechanics to go with the bosses that makes things more interesting.

It'd make Healers have to do more work along with the DPS and Tank, but you wouldn't wipe unless you messed up a mechanic more than twice - but that's what veterans are wanting: Higher difficulty in dungeons that give a little extra push on players to get better, but not so much that it pushes to Savage or Extreme levels of difficulty.

I want to see that in Dawntrail - and possibly even across the board if they can fit it into development time for previous dungeons for like a patch.

[VerdeLuck]

a number of MMO developers have said and experienced the exact opposite of what you're saying based on ther experience and data. Increasing the difficulty of casual content does not make casual players play better or engage with harder content, it makes a significant portion of those that can't clear it just quit.
WoW just had an influx of interest with Dragonflight after going abck to making a good experience for casuals.
In Heavensward, SE added savage level weapons to Thordan EX and increased the difficulty along with it. This had the opposite effect of what you are saying, players who previously played EX Primals as their content for engame couldn't clear.
In Stormblood, the Ivalice raids significantly raised the bar for what was expected in alliance raids. Instead of rising to the higher difficulty, casual players just chose to not do or unlock the alliance raids that expansion. It took nerfs and a flat echo buff to Orbonne to get casuals to run it regularly again.

It seems like raiders in this game are of the mind that casual players should "git gud or leave the game" but in that scenario, they're gonna pick the "leave the game" option.

[Boblawblah]

I know I'm not the only one that can clearly see the difference between something like The Dead Ends and Copperbell Mines. They've consistently been raising the difficulty of dungeons over expansions, and I assume this won't be any different. the problem is, some people are expecting veterans to be able to have somewhat of a challenge in a MSQ dungeon, and it's simply never going to happen. The dungeons HAVE to be doable with 4 sprouts. Right there, that means that anyone that has been playing for a long time is going to breeze through them. It'll never change.

Now, if you're talking about separate, more difficult dungeons that are optional, well...ya, you might as well ask SE to change Criterion dungeons to make them easier then.

[Noumenon]

clearly see the difference between something like The Dead Ends and something like Copperbell Mines

ShBaby doesn't know what pre-nerf Pharos Sirius was like.

[Tint]

ShBaby doesn't know what pre-nerf Pharos Sirius was like.

But I do.

And I know that they had not only to nerf it but change expert roulette in a way that you have to unlock all dungeons in order to run the roulette. People left all the time when it popped up in roulette. Pharos Sirius had a huge impact on all future dungeons they released and is the main cause they are so dull now.

I miss it.

[Ivtrix]

They did this in cataclysm. They went too high on the skill floor. Things did not go well.

So warning: you do have to be very careful on how you raise the bar.

[Jeeqbit]

When I look at them objectively, they have made them harder. Technically.

Many of the Endwalker dungeons are faster-paced, such as the Tower of Zot, or involve paying attention to things like heads, foot steps or rocks and wind like in Ktisis Hyperboreia. In The Dead Ends you have to navigate through the aoes while they are blowing at you from a certain direction. This often leads to people getting hit and sometimes being killed due to lack of Esuna.

In Azaldaal's Legacy you have to pay attention to the tentacles and honestly a lot of people just get hit by them. Then there is the laser mechanic that requires paying attention to where the safe spot is. Avoiding all the stampedes and cleaves in Lapis Manalis can take some getting used to with a busy rotation and The Aetherfont has fights that involve pre-positioning to be safe. The last fight involves looking at the tentacles and where it's facing a lot and if you don't, you'll get hit and potentially die.

So these fights have actually got a lot better from the old "move out of a red circle", it's just that alongside these better dungeon fights, tank self-heals have got better to the point where even a novice tank could probably solo everything, healing matters even less because of it, and although the mechanics got better they could hit even harder so that there is a real consequence for getting them wrong.

No matter how good dungeons get though, it's not going to make people like doing expert roulette because of the lack of variety. When you do one dungeon for 4-8 months, you become so good at it that you can do it in your sleep even if the mechanics are more deadly.

[HyperiusUltima]

It seems like raiders in this game are of the mind that casual players should "git gud or leave the game" but in that scenario, they're gonna pick the "leave the game" option.

But that's the kicker. XIV's losing player retention because of the fact that there is no midcore content to bridge the gap between Normal and Savage. There is only Extreme, and that in itself at times is not midcore content and more akin to challenging content closer to Savage. How are you going to keep veteran players around if you have nothing to engage them with after the tier's over? At most, you clear for somewhere around 8 weeks the entire raid tier, then proceed to do something else.

Since Shadowbringers they have been catering to new players for accessibility, but there has not been a proper challenge placed in front of them that actually makes the player go "I need to improve" or do something different. You can easily coast along the MSQ Duties now on Very Easy with zero difficulty if you wanted as well. They need a new team hired on that can create content that can bridge both the Casuals and the Raiders - Bozja and Eureka were the fruition of it in Stormblood and Shadowbringers.

We lost that in Endwalker, and there is 0 engagement to be had with Relic because it's a glorified Tomestone Weapon.

[Winterfang]

They did this in cataclysm. They went too high on the skill floor. Things did not go well.

Personal experience Incoming:
Of all the dungeons in Cataclysm, Grim Batol was the one I personally dreaded getting the most because the amount of people who would screw up the First and Last boss compared to the other dungeons were higher than usual.
Using the first boss, General Umbriss, as an example. The biggest mechanic to watch out for was Umbriss summoning a handful of Adds from a crumbled wall and one of those adds would have a buff that transfers to another enemy if it dies too close. So have someone be ready to separate that one add and kill it while having some distance from other enemies and that takes care of that mechanic. There were too many people who refused to use their CC because they still treated dungeons the same as the end of Wrath when they were a joke and it was a coin flip whether or not the Tank would taunt that one add after I did (If no one CC'd) because Lol just AoE them down, what could possibly go wr- And we're all dead.

What happened in Cataclysm was a case of lowering the floor too much and people became accustomed to it, Something that is generally very difficult to reverse and likely will always be met with resistance.

[VerdeLuck]

But that's the kicker. XIV's losing player retention because of the fact that there is no midcore content to bridge the gap between Normal and Savage. There is only Extreme, and that in itself at times is not midcore content and more akin to challenging content closer to Savage. How are you going to keep veteran players around if you have nothing to engage them with after the tier's over? At most, you clear for somewhere around 8 weeks the entire raid tier, then proceed to do something else.

Since Shadowbringers they have been catering to new players for accessibility, but there has not been a proper challenge placed in front of them that actually makes the player go "I need to improve" or do something different. You can easily coast along the MSQ Duties now on Very Easy with zero difficulty if you wanted as well. They need a new team hired on that can create content that can bridge both the Casuals and the Raiders - Bozja and Eureka were the fruition of it in Stormblood and Shadowbringers.

We lost that in Endwalker, and there is 0 engagement to be had with Relic because it's a glorified Tomestone Weapon.

XIV is losing players because we're on the last patch of the expansion with a 9 month content drought before the next expansion.