Let's talk about the upcoming DRG rework...

[Shurrikhan]

Trimming of combos? look forward to 1, 2, 3! Too much "bloat" so enjoy!

Sarcasm noted, but if "bloat" really were a concern... I'd honestly just like to swap things out such that each button does more (greater total number of actions, despite fewer buttons).

Start with the combos. Rather than having 3 separate combo lines that can't intermix --thereby currently requiring 10 buttons for a single point of decision every 3 or 10 GCDs-- allow us to move through them in whatever order we like while moving up. Even Doom Spike -> Disembowel -> Heaven's Thrust would be permissible. Each gets just 1 button, called Thrust, Drive, or Surge. (Your opening 5 GCDs --TT, Db, CT, WT, F&C-- would just be Drive x4 + Thrust.)

Add a third Dragon skill to go after Coerthan. Dragon skills will still be locked in for the first used (CT always forces WT next, FT forces F&C next), but you can choose any other Dragon skill thereafter.

Drop the various Jumps and Dive buttons except for Jump itself and Evasive Leap. Instead, Jump uses MP to launch you into the air, greatly or wholly mitigating non-targeted and non-raid-wide damage, and replaces your next Thrust, Drive, or Surge GCD with an augmented Jump version. Thrust becomes Spineshatter Dive, Drive becomes Dragonfire Dive, and Surge becomes Divebomb. These cost varying further amounts of MP. You learn more of these replacements as you level up (SSD -> DFD -> DB), and those forms themselves increasingly become replaced under Life of the Dragon (Stardiver -> Dragonwroth -> Extinction).

Yes, that'd need an MP generation loop, ideally in such a way that lets one gamble between sustain and finishing off the encounter then and there, and a bit more besides to flesh out the additions, but this is just a quick mock-up.

10 buttons saved, 4 actions added, and GCD points of decision increased from 1 in 5 GCDs in single-target and 1 in 3 GCDs in AoE to 4 in 5 GCDs in both.

[Chulainn_Loveless]

I literally just created my forum account right now to tell you how much I love this idea. Imagine LotD modifying multiple skills--at that point, to fit it into the 2 minute meta and give dragoon an actual opener, I wouldn't even be upset if LotD was a buff trigger instead of a gauge. The main obstacle I see is how MP regeneration could be implemented--it would have to be enough to allow you to use your jumps between raid buffs as well, lest the normal jumps become unused. I'm also wondering how ogcds would fit into this; personally, if the class becomes less weaving dependent, I think it should have a skill speed buff. Maybe that could even be worked into a gauge of some sort that gets spent instead of MP, and could even be the "sustain vs finisher" element of skill expression. Something along the lines of spending the gauge on jumps can give you an attack speed penalty (in 2 or more stages) if you use more than 2 jumps.
(0) (0) (0) (0) = 1.8 gcd
( ) ( ) (0) (0) = 1.8 gcd
( ) ( ) ( ) (0) = 2.2 gcd
( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) = 2.5 gcd

It could give an interesting flow to the class, where you're still firing off jumps in rapid bursts. Let's say completing a 3 hit single target or aoe will give you one unit unless you modify one into a jump; refilling the gauge while only having used two jumps will let you refill it significantly quicker, so the opener might look something like this:
Jump(ogcd modifier ability) --> thrust, thrust, drive, surge (aligns you with raid buffs and refills the spent gauge)
Jump-->thrust (ssd), jump-->drive(dfd), jump-->surge(db)
We're at 1 gauge tick left now
<Imagine LotD is a trigger ability that enhances your jumps and restores 2 gauge ticks>
Stardiver, Dragonwroth, Extinction--ticks are spent and your burst phase is complete

Then you slowly build your attack speed back up and spend your two gauge ticks that you can keep without slowing you down again. It would sort of be like black mage's umbral and astral phases, only once you stay in your hard hitting phase for too long, it will take a little more time to pick up the pace again. I think it fits thematically, with jumps needing a lot more exertion than thrusting your spear. If there were a way to recharge these ticks before boss fights a la ninja's hide, then I think it would feel even better during dungeons. Call the damn skill "Dragon's milk."

Heck, they could even somewhat copy black mage and I'd be happy with it; switching from a jumping phase to a stabbing phase, and bring back phlebotomize which can be used in either phase (like Thunder) for your DOT.

[Keichi]

Dont like that idea.
Its to many times to press the jump buttom. Its hard for me to Image it, but, it looks for me similary to the Samurai (allways press the same start skill and than use two other for a new combo). And i dont like the Samurai much, because his attacks feels so disconntected. Dragoon is very streamlined and feels strong connected. And i dont like the idea of building up your speed first. Whe had that with the original monk. And he was at the start allways so slow and had lower dmg, because of it. A 2 phases fighting stil, like Red mage, Black mage or reaper is questionable. It can feels to disconected (Red mage with his distance phase and than meele phase). Or has to much focus on one phase (reaper, where the fun part is mostly with the void skills, but it can hurt your finger, when you need to press allways the shift Button for the second line of skills). Or, feels so unimportant, that it could practicly vanish (ice by the blm is so short, that it has nearly no meaning).

The idea from Shurri looks for me similary to the monk (the second, most streamlined class). But even that looks for me, as if you has to press the same one skill to many times (good saying from a blm, who "only" use fire4^^).

Even the idea of the using of the mp is questionable. No Non-caster DD use mp. And it wasnt a good idea for the bard.
I think, whe shouldnt think to much about, to change the core set of the class. A little change and new direction, like with the monk and his chakra System, is ok (the monk changed from a class with gauge to one without and has know a other gauge).
But, it didnt need to change as much, as it was with the summoner.

[Shurrikhan]

The idea from Shurri looks for me similary to the monk (the second, most streamlined class). But even that looks for me, as if you has to press the same one skill to many times (good saying from a blm, who "only" use fire4^^).

To clarify:

Presently, not including Evasive, we jump 9 times per 2 minutes (4 HJs, 2 SSDs, 2 SDs, 1 DFD), or an average of 4.5 jumps/dives/self-yeets per minute.

Presumably, MP generation would be tuned to much the same. It's just that instead of hitting 5 separate buttons, you'd hit 1 button and then any of 3 buttons you already have, with those 3 varying within and outside of Life of the Dragon. 6 jump actions possible, with 3 choices at a time atop greater choice in timing... but only 1 button used for it.

Additional Design Control Options:

• Because design can vary the MP costs, you may have slightly more in single-target (say, 5-6 per minute) and slightly fewer in AoE (say, 3-4 per minute).
• You could also apply soft-cooldowns by having each option's MP cost, say, double upon using that option and fade back to its normal cost over <its soft cooldown>. This incentivizes rotation while still offering flexibility and some further affordances for when the fight is nearly over.
• You'd almost certainly want to still limit your LotD-enhanced jump to just one per LotD (as with Stardiver presently), but you could technically handle that differently, such as by having LotD's upgrade simply consume all remaining MP for near-proportionately greater damage (so long as the sweet spot, consequent to the skill's relative tuning and its bonus for additional MP consumed, still includes plenty of jumps between those all-consuming finishers).

Even the idea of the using of the mp is questionable. No Non-caster DD use mp.

Presently, no, but it's a granular/centigrade gauge that offers the same affordances as Ninki, Kenki, Oath, Beast, Soul and Shroud, Voice, Heat, Espirit, and the like --which are the norm among physical classes) except that

1. it doesn't waste UI components and
   
   
2. it starts combat ready rather than all those gauge-spenders, in effect, starting on cooldown.
   
   The latter, moreover, means that skills can far better interact with that gauge without crippling the given job's opener and downtime value (which leads increasingly to balancing impossibilities between both shorter and longer fights and those with greater or lesser relative downtime).

There is no design constraint by which physical jobs cannot use MP. The lore even specifies that they all use MP. It even notes that DRG's jump, unsurprisingly, manipulates and surges aether, in that portion draining the user (i.e., uses MP), for that superhuman feat of movement.

It's just a matter of whether you want the given gauge to start on cooldown (be a builder-spender) or start ready (be a spender-rebuilder).

Note also that gauges are neither the only we can nor do back-load damage. Making use of MP is not some fixation on openers, and indeed you can delay or pace out damage by any of various other means even if a job were to use MP for its added flexibility. Rather, it's just a desire not to waste UI components and to have a bit more flexibility while still following the same reasonable constraints that are present even without a spender-rebuilder gauge.

And of course, MP could instead just be how we (a bit more flexibly) handle Geirskogul instead, with some tiny amount being spent on Jump to enhance it but those remaining on CDs, with Geirskogul being spent only so much as still lets us enhance said Jumps (but occasionally dropping to 0 if the fight would end before our next jump), similar to the old HW design. Therein, LotD could just replace Geirskogul and greatly increase the MP generated by your dragon skills (WT, F&C, and maybe the proposed new one).

As for the weaponskills being like Monk... not really. It'd still work in 5-step combos, and it does not make use of a use-anything system like Perfect Balance or Meikyo Shisui. It just uses 3 buttons for 3 options, instead of 10 buttons for 2 options.

[Rithy255]

I was thinking about Dragon sight after my last post, I like the idea of a melee who's buffing others lol, I'm wondering if they're going to remove it in 7.0 as I see a lot of complaints about it (personally I really like target buff abilities, over raid buff abilities)
Maybe it could be reworked to where its sort of like a "mini" dance partner, where you consistently buff a ally by 1-2%? and maybe that percent will increase during your 1-2 minute windows (via another buff or reworking lance charge to buff them as well), unless they address 2 minute meta somehow (or something along those lines), IDK the ability is usually macro and they generally like to look at abilities which get macros often (like DRKs aoe DOT), I'm at least hoping they dont outright remove the single target buff

Other then that I really don't know what they can do to make dragoon more fun? certainly just hoping it doesn't go the "simple" route a lot of jobs have been. I prob face roll my dragoon buttons a bit too much because I'm not a big expert on it but i've actually been playing it a lot more lately (rather then samurai or ninja like i usually do), but it's been fun playing a dragoon doesn't feel like your usual melee, I hope it doesn't lose that.

[Keichi]

The "in whatever order we like" part is, what let me think on the monk. Where you can easily switch between St and aoe attacks.
But, by reread your Post did it looks more like the caster typ play or the story chara play (the "all together in the dive skill ... (dive4x × thrust)" part, you practicly press the same skill 4 times and than a other one, what is the playstil of the blm -that i would liked to change into a 1,2,3/4 combo to- ). And i mixed it with the jump part, that it looked for me like: "jump, thrust. Jump, drive. Jump surge". Practicly a 3 times 2 hit combo. Similary to the samurai. What i didnt like much.

That the jump skill becomes mp bounded would be something, that is simply differently. And could be a option, as long as the jump isnt the main attack form (the paladin and dark knight has a similary thing). But dont know, how much i like it. What i can not image is the phase after the jump.
Where is the chara after jump, but, before you use the following skill (like ssd)? Is he standing in the air? Is he allready on the ground? Is he vanished from the monitor and can not be seen? For a normal rpg could it work. But for a Action game or mmo is this phase questionable for me.

Like i allready sayed, did i not think, that they will change the dragoon as much as the summoner (at last did i hope that). It will probally be similary to the monk. And the big change is probally compaired to the shb Version (didnt he had a gauge at that time?).

What i think, i would change is:
The jump skill, like i sayed.
Reduce the combo back to a 4 hit skill. Where maybe the 4. Skill make the highest dmg. And not heavens thrust.
Maybe remove disembowel and Chaos thrust (not likely, they stranged it in ew), for making room for 2 New skills. They would remove a dot skill and a skill that mostly only increase dmg. And it remove a full attack rotation.
Wheeling thrust (that is the skill connected to Chaos thrust, or?) could be changed to a aoe skill and becomes a 4. attack for the aoe rotation.
The jump skills could become a new rotation and take the place of the rotation, i removed.

The dragon eye skill can be keep. But Geis and Nast could be connected. But ones becomes a ST attack and the other could be keep as a Aoe attack. Both moves looks similary (one critic to the drg, half of the attacks looks very similary).
Similary for stardive and Wyrmwind, who both could have a St attack version to.
It would be similary to the samurai or Blm, who has the concept of pairs of St and Aoe attacks. And that could be nice for the dragoon (reaper has similary concepts for the normal attacks, but is missing ST finisher to). By the other hand. All this skills have allready high potency, who are becoming weaker at the second target. Its questionable, if St attacks are than needed to.

[ZiraZ]

No Changes
No Changes

[Shurrikhan]

The "in whatever order we like" part is, what let me think on the monk. Where you can easily switch between St and aoe attacks.

I have to wonder what would be "problematic" in that, especially relative to the alternative (having 9 buttons wasted per GCD for 9 out of 10 GCDs in single-target situations or for 2 out of 3 GCDs in AoE situations).

There are no use cases for restarting a combo early that would not retain that level of control into this more button-efficient layout, as the potency loss is too high when considering lost uptime of Power Surge and/or Chaos Thrust to forgo a Heaven's Thrust, Fang and Claw, or Wheeling Thrust (and if on anything else, you're just refreshed or are about to refresh PS and CT anyways).

But, by reread your Post did it looks more like the caster typ play or the story chara play (the "all together in the dive skill ... (dive4x × thrust)" part, you practicly press the same skill 4 times and than a other one, what is the playstil of the blm -that i would liked to change into a 1,2,3/4 combo to- ). And i mixed it with the jump part, that it looked for me like: "jump, thrust. Jump, drive. Jump surge". Practicly a 3 times 2 hit combo. Similary to the samurai. What i didnt like much.

Samurai doesn't do that, either, though... The only jobs that have used modify-next-GCD skills that do not have considerable time between modifiable attacks have been Dark Knight (via Dark Arts) and Sage (via Eukresia). That's not and has never been a thing on BLM or SAM...

It's just that rather than hitting 1234516754 or 8-9-10-8-9-10-8-9-10 you'd typically hit something like 12212-21121 (ST) or 32223-33331 (AoE), with the option at each GCD to hit any of those 3 buttons in any given GCD.

That the jump skill becomes mp bounded would be something, that is simply differently. And could be a option, as long as the jump isnt the main attack form (the paladin and dark knight has a similary thing). But dont know, how much i like it. What i can not image is the phase after the jump.
Where is the chara after jump, but, before you use the following skill (like ssd)? Is he standing in the air? Is he allready on the ground? Is he vanished from the monitor and can not be seen? For a normal rpg could it work. But for a Action game or mmo is this phase questionable for me.

You hit the oGCD and disappear up, which changes any queued and future weaponskill actions to their Jump variants. If a full GCD elapses before you use any Jump skill, you simply drop back down.

While above, you move at a greatly accelerated rate while taking reduced damage from most attacks, similar to before releasing the PvP LB if it were a bit quicker / more responsive.

Like i allready sayed, did i not think, that they will change the dragoon as much as the summoner (at last did i hope that). It will probally be similary to the monk. And the big change is probally compaired to the shb Version (didnt he had a gauge at that time?).

DRG still has every gauge that existed in Shadowbringers. It just also now has one further.

The dragon eye skill can be keep. But Geis and Nast could be connected. But ones becomes a ST attack and the other could be keep as a Aoe attack. Both moves looks similary (one critic to the drg, half of the attacks looks very similary).

Geirskogul and Nastrond are already connected, and it is completely fine that they are both hybrids ("fall-off AoEs"). Adding AoE|ST split variants to CDs just doubles button-counts for a mechanic whose sole depth is "Can you count to 2?"

Moreover, those splits effectively typically just nerf the job's performance by reducing focus damage despite barely if at all increasing the AoE potency floor (upon gaining Senei, SAM's potency to the first target barely increased while its total potency dealt was decreased until very high target counts due to near-pure-AoE-ification of Guren).

It's a bloated, uninteresting way to add new actions that tends to cause as more harm than affordances.

Similary for stardive and Wyrmwind, who both could have a St attack version to.
It would be similary to the samurai or Blm, who has the concept of pairs of St and Aoe attacks.

Xenoglossy|Foul was, especially after Enhanced Foul made the latter identically instant, considered a bloat skill on BLM, too. Why do we necessarily want to imitate that, of all things?

And that could be nice for the dragoon (reaper has similary concepts for the normal attacks, but is missing ST finisher to). By the other hand. All this skills have allready high potency, who are becoming weaker at the second target. Its questionable, if St attacks are than needed to.

???

Again, there's nothing wrong with having hybrid attacks (high initial potency but X% damage loss after the first target struck). They're far more button-efficient, create smoother and therefore more balanceable damage curves, and provide quite nearly the same prioritizing gameplay in terms of focus targeting just from whom you make your primary target/first enemy struck for the full damage value.

[Aco505]

Reviving this thread since it's the last one on the topic. Some JP players have been giving feedback in their DPS subforum. Some of the feedback is good and some of it is asking for removals. Since this is concerning to me, I shall quote a past post of mine about what could be changed for DRG.

DRG doesn't need sweeping changes of any kind. That said, there are things that could be improved or changed. Here are some ideas:


- Actual interaction for Spineshatter Dive and Dragonfire Dive so that their purpose is not only to be pressed on CD during burst. DFD in particular, as a 120s cooldown, needs a boost of some kind, not necessarily potency-wise.
Do not make DFD the "AoE jump" that shares cooldown with HJ or SSD.

- Tune GSK in some way so that it doesn't drift. There's a specific amount of drift that the ability has no matter what and it's the only one in our kit to do so due to the inability to queue it during LotD. This should be fixed.

- The ability to have a maximum of 3 scales while keeping the Wyrmwind Thrust cost at 2 for more flexibility. Also reduce the cooldown of WWT, it makes no sense for it to be 10s.

- If the Dragon Sight tether is not going to come back, make DS a direct upgrade to Lance Charge. Let's say 15% damage up with a 60s cooldown, numbers can be adjusted as needed for any loss in the 120s burst (LC + DS together with Power Surge gives us a 23% damage increase without counting PS, and I'm not including the DS partner damage). While merging LC and DS might reduce optimization options in fights where the two abilities desync, I don't mind that tradeoff if we get other interesting things in return.

Also I personally dislike the DNC partner idea. While it will stop reliance on a macro, the issue will then move into having to change targets mid fight if needed, thus forcing an extra bind that isn't really required. I'd rather just make macros more responsive instead.

- Make Battle Litany last 20s for the DRG at least (party stays at 15s) to make drifting and weaving in 120s bursts less tight.

- Having Life of the Dragon windows interact or change GCDs or oGCDs in some way.

- Keep Stardiver's animation lock but increase the potency slightly (not too much, we don't wanna be reliant on critical chance) to account for it being a single weave. Between 700 or 800 potency should be a good compromise.

- Allow the 4th and 5th positional to be used in any order.

- Make the positional in the 5th GCD to have a new animation and perhaps spice up the rotation by for instance providing a gauge like MNK nadi that you have to stack in a certain order to unlock or buff an attack. If WT gives us gauge X and FnC gauge Y, then we could have three combinations such as XX, YY, XY (and perhaps a fourth YX if order mattered although that's probably a lot).

- More opportunities for Life Surge usage so that it can be applied to more GCDs such as making it work with Chaotic Spring in some way or changing the ability into a weaponskill that direct crits and is on its own GCD like Soul Slice/Sonic Break. It could also give us a scale so that it interacts with other parts of our kit.

Note: removing Life Surge entirely is a bad idea despite what many people say as it's the only ability in our kit besides WWT that requires some thought and is not pressed on strict cooldown, even if the gains are often not that substantial (such as when using it on the 5th positional under all buffs) and its use is easily mapped in full uptime scenarios.

- A defensive of some kind, at least a passive 5% damage reduction with a heal popping when low HP or something.

- Reducing the CD of Elusive Jump to 20s baseline, no need for it to be a lvl 96 trait or something of the sort. BLM shouldn't be the only job getting QoL at lower levels.

- Slightly increase the width of line attacks, and increase the range of GSK, NAS, WWT and MD to 20y to match our jumps'. Also, GSK should always put us in LotD even if it doesn't deal damage or fix the problem of line attacks missing moving targets.

- Make Piercing Talon not useless.

- Return the blue Blood of the Dragon aura when we have one or more dragon eyes.

- Upgrade Vorpal Thrust's animation.

- Make Raiden Thrust and Draconian Fury a direct upgrade to True Thrust and Doom Spike. Scales will be granted only by those weaponskills under the effect of Draconian Fire. Basically it all stays the same but we shouldn't keep two weaponskills that we never use after the opener or long periods of downtime.

- Make low level action learning less painful. We shouldn't get our first AoE weaponskill at level 40 and we certainly shouldn't get Power Surge in AoE at 62. That said, I don't dislike this kind of jankiness myself. It's just part of the little quirks the job has. Also, we should be able to use three NAS at level 70. Having an LotD timer of 20s feels really bad.


Any amount of ideas from this list would be good. The job has room to grow yet without being pruned.

What I don't want is to copy systems like Enshroud, something often suggested in these forums. We don't need LotD to become a carbon copy of it with three charge-based uses of NAS and STD ending the Life state. I'd rather keep DRG as unique to itself as possible.

TL; DR. Don't remove something if we're not going to get something in return. Don't kill the busy 2-min burst. Don't turn DFD into the "AoE jump"; make it give resources or be more relevant to the rotation. Fix the GSK drift. Keep the unique aspects of the job: 5-GCD combo, higher positional count, oGCD-focused rotation, stronger in fights where the gauge can be stored, stronger in 2-target situations, etc.

[mallleable]

Some guesses as to what might happen to DRG

DRG will no longer have its 5 part combo, instead jumps will combo into certain thrust actions -- like Spine Shatter Dive combos into Heaven's Thrust. Some button consolidation will happen for damage buffs -- like Lance Charge could upgrade to Dragon Sight, but the partner mechanic will no longer be there. The effects of Life Surge could get baked into its own attack. Job mechanics could be brought down to a significantly lower level to set things up so that like Dragonfire Dive could eventually upgrade into Stardiver. A really spicy change they could make is that jumps do more damage the further you are from a target.