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  1. #1
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Dec 2014
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    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Honestly, I get no test server - datamining and spoilers and all that.

    ...but it would be nice if they'd show us proposed Job changes in advance. I know they stopped doing it because the community were areses about it, so it's yet another "this is why we don't have nice things" situation, but I really would like more of a heads up.

    .

    That isn't our analogy. As I already told you, the analogy wasn't about speed, it was about which type of vehicle you like.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    IDontPetLalas's Avatar
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    Oct 2020
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    1,419
    Character
    Alinne Seamont
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Honestly, I get no test server - datamining and spoilers and all that.

    ...but it would be nice if they'd show us proposed Job changes in advance. I know they stopped doing it because the community were areses about it, so it's yet another "this is why we don't have nice things" situation, but I really would like more of a heads up.

    .

    That isn't our analogy. As I already told you, the analogy wasn't about speed, it was about which type of vehicle you like.
    Just because you're not following a discussion, or in agreement with its direction, doesn't mean you get to dictate the terms. At this point, you're either confused, or being deliberately obtuse.

    Here we go again - car model = healer job. Speed = complexity, number of DPS skills added , for the sake of brevity /simplicity. In this case you maintain your healer job, you have a choice in each job as to your DPS skills.
    (7)
    Last edited by IDontPetLalas; 11-19-2023 at 12:48 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Dec 2014
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    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas View Post
    Just because you're not following a discussion, or in agreement with its direction, doesn't mean you get to dictate the terms. At this point, you're either confused, or being deliberately obtuse.

    Here we go again - car model = healer job. Speed = complexity, number of DPS skills added , for the sake of brevity /simplicity. In this case you maintain your healer job, you have a choice in each job as to your DPS skills.
    No, you altered the analogy mid-stream to move the goalposts. I pointed this out and talked about the original analogy. There's no point in moving the analogy all the time. It'd be like if I said "Well, you can drive that carbon emitting monster humvee, but you should leave the Prius for we enlightened people who care about each other and the environment" to make your position look bad, too.

    ...and it would be just as dumb because "speed" and "pollution" don't matter with class design - player enjoyment and class viability in content are what the relevant factors are here. The original analogy reflected this in presenting a bunch of similar car models, with similar features, that were all viable but which some might not find enjoyable to drive while others are perfectly content with, and the idea of adding new car models that have more bells and whistles or aesthetics or overall designs that appeal to those unhappy with the current selection - while keeping existing models for those who ARE happy with the current selection - makes a lot of sense and is a valid argument.

    But then you start throwing in extra metrics not part of the initial discussion that alter several of the established axioms of the analogy - specifically metrics where one is OBJECTIVELY better than another, where the distinction now is SUBJECTIVE. That destroys the analogy and makes it invalid. Worse, it's deceptive practice and a goalpost shift to try and salvage a weakened argument (stealmaning) and try to artificially weaken a stronger argument.

    If you want to talk about speed, then we're now discussing some completely different metric and we would have to abandon the first analogy and implement a new analogy. Which is fine, but completely gets us back to square one.

    I'm neither "confused, or being deliberately obtuse", and I'm the one who IS "following a discussion". You tried a deceptive goalposts shift, and I pointed this out. If you have to be deceitful to win arguments, that just means your position is flawed to begin with.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    IDontPetLalas's Avatar
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    Oct 2020
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    1,419
    Character
    Alinne Seamont
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    No, you altered the analogy mid-stream to move the goalposts. I pointed this out and talked about the original analogy. There's no point in moving the analogy all the time. It'd be like if I said "Well, you can drive that carbon emitting monster humvee, but you should leave the Prius for we enlightened people who care about each other and the environment" to make your position look bad, too.

    ...and it would be just as dumb because "speed" and "pollution" don't matter with class design - player enjoyment and class viability in content are what the relevant factors are here. The original analogy reflected this in presenting a bunch of similar car models, with similar features, that were all viable but which some might not find enjoyable to drive while others are perfectly content with, and the idea of adding new car models that have more bells and whistles or aesthetics or overall designs that appeal to those unhappy with the current selection - while keeping existing models for those who ARE happy with the current selection - makes a lot of sense and is a valid argument.

    But then you start throwing in extra metrics not part of the initial discussion that alter several of the established axioms of the analogy - specifically metrics where one is OBJECTIVELY better than another, where the distinction now is SUBJECTIVE. That destroys the analogy and makes it invalid. Worse, it's deceptive practice and a goalpost shift to try and salvage a weakened argument (stealmaning) and try to artificially weaken a stronger argument.

    If you want to talk about speed, then we're now discussing some completely different metric and we would have to abandon the first analogy and implement a new analogy. Which is fine, but completely gets us back to square one.

    I'm neither "confused, or being deliberately obtuse", and I'm the one who IS "following a discussion". You tried a deceptive goalposts shift, and I pointed this out. If you have to be deceitful to win arguments, that just means your position is flawed to begin with.
    No one has been altered anything, and given what I highlighted above, it doesn't seem that you're in a healthy state of mind.
    (10)

  5. #5
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Wow.

    You're in rare form today. Now you're a psychoanalyst to try and discredit someone you disagree with on an internet forum online by questioning their state of mind. That's...not healthy. For you.

    I'm...just not going to engage with you further right now.
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player
    Sebazy's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    3,468
    Character
    Sebazy Spiritwalker
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Probably for the best after that last one
    (8)
    ~ WHM / badSCH / Snob ~ http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/871132/ ~

  7. #7
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sebazy View Post
    Probably for the best after that last one
    And here I agreed with you on Diacloud procs. Tut tut.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebazy View Post
    Tut tut what? I'm not even on the attack with that one, it's just a statement that you're laying more ironic statements ticking people off over things that you yourself have done many a time.

    Or have you forgotten the whole 'Are you feeling ok? You're not yourself' phase you went through with several people in the past?

    If you want to hand out more ammo, by all means be my guest.
    Riiight.

    I think I'll pass.

    The only times I've asked that is when I'm genuinely concerned about someone who made a complete shift in personality from amicable to highly antagonistic with no cause, in the specific case I'm thinking about, after also just vanishing from the forum for a few weeks. Do you really think IDPL is genuinely concerned for my mental state?

    And then she tried to use that to attack me in a completely unrelated thread. If you're concerned with someone's mental state, the last thing you're going to do is both antagonize them AND use your antagonism of them to try to mock them and get others to join in.
    (0)
    Last edited by Renathras; 11-20-2023 at 08:02 AM. Reason: EDIT to not waste posts on stupidity

  8. #8
    Player
    Sebazy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    3,468
    Character
    Sebazy Spiritwalker
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Tut tut what? I'm not even on the attack with that one, it's just a statement that you're laying more ironic statements ticking people off over things that you yourself have done many a time.

    Or have you forgotten the whole 'Are you feeling ok? You're not yourself' phase you went through with several people in the past?

    If you want to hand out more ammo, by all means be my guest.
    (10)
    ~ WHM / badSCH / Snob ~ http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/871132/ ~

  9. #9
    Player
    SieyaM's Avatar
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    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,189
    Character
    Sieya Mizuno
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Healing isn't all that hard, but groups end up doing things that make it hard. Such as constantly staying out of range of AoE heals so you have to chase them down.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player
    Carin-Eri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Old Sharlayan
    Posts
    2,026
    Character
    Carin Eri
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SieyaM View Post
    Healing isn't all that hard, but groups end up doing things that make it hard. Such as constantly staying out of range of AoE heals so you have to chase them down.
    This!

    I finally bit the proverbial bullet very recently and have levelled White Mage. As noted in an earlier post, I was hesitant to try a Healer job as hated the idea of anyone else relying on me, and I tend to be clumsy/slow reacting to mechanics. Started by doing a few Dungeons with Trusts, and then dungeons/trials/raids with some friends before branching out and joining general roulettes.

    Anyway - having finally reached level 90, can honestly say that I've experienced what you say! Even one of my friends, when was doing dungeons/trials, had a habit of seemingly trying to avoid my AoE casts!
    (1)
    Last edited by Carin-Eri; 11-27-2023 at 09:09 PM.

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