[Discuss] Bringing back mitigation-damage interaction

[Shurrikhan]

But, as I said, you cannot guarantee the increased DPS. Noone has that sort of control over someone else.

Then hold the existing system to that same standard.

If using a defensive is "pointless" unless it produces rDPS or newly prevents a one-shot, but you "cannot guarantee" that a healing GCD will be trimmed for having used it, then what are your defensives doing against any attack that wouldn't one-shot you (regardless, apparently, of whether they're actually nullifying more damage over their whole duration)?

Are they likewise just bloat, despite the difference their "optional" (not required to survive) use being almost half of tank's total sustain, equating to about a fifth of an average healer's sustain output, which... even under the present "pathetic" healing requirements of this Savage tier, do not each have a fifth of their output to spare before using GCDs.

We had that sort of model before, it didn't work, as I am sure you are fully aware. DPS always wins.

It was a blatant tuning issue atop a cluster**** of a mechanic, wherein only one tank could actually change stances without crippling cost in more than a single direction per fight. How is that remotely a sane test case?

However, it is curious that you assume a greater defensive/healing kit necessitates a reduction in DPS as opposed to a change in the incoming damage.

I'm not saying what it should be; I'm pointing out what has happened.

Healer and tank's maximum portion of rDPS relative to DPS has decreased over time, probably because the sheer amount of pre-allocated outputs (via CDs that can ONLY be used towards sustain) are increasingly less able to flex around the demands of a given situation.

Which would be to use this tool as little as possible, getting the usage down to 0, unless I go back to the whole forced usage thing, in which case I go to why does this defensive cooldown suck compared to others.

Again, no, that's not the case. You're conflating tuning issues based on what is probably the most overpowered period tanks have ever experienced and, more importantly, the most banal period healing gameplay has ever experienced.

Why would you want to cement either? Why is that the state you want to build any and every possible design around?

Slightly wind back Healers' glut of oGCD healers and give them back greater swing to and control over their rDPS. Pull back a bit of Tanks' timing-insensitive or -inflexible sustain added in Endwalker (Holy Shelltron, Req healing, GNB ExCog, Bloodwhetting/Nascent no longer scaling with damage), so that performance varies more around timely use of cooldowns and/or setup around them -- i.e., the things that make tanking feel like tanking -- rather than being so padded by random-ass HoTs or Benedictions-per-25s in AoE. Both of those things are beneficial changes regardless.

From there, if you want healers to further imbalance towards barrier healers just being objectively better at basically everything and to make healing increasingly centered just around AoE heals, by all means, go increase damage in general. Otherwise, though, you're going to have to look more analytically into relative sustain requirements.

Yes, if tank sustain and damage to tanks increase equally, they cancel out... so long as you can't also trade out other roles for the one you most scaled to match that increased strength of content. But, you can. And we do. In which case just increasing damage to deal with excess tank strength, or vice versa, just increasingly means that you replace healers with tanks.

So, why? Why do you, or anyone else, want this tool in the first place?

Because, much like a situation where at-cost (i.e., non-Lily, GCD) heals can be of use (net gain) can let healers feel more like healers, having a place for at-cost tools on tanks rewards awareness of their party's output and opportunities relative to their own personal outputs, which can make them feel more like actual Tanks.

Consider if DPS had the current Tank treatment here:

Rather than depending at all on uptime, especially back when uptime could actually require some skill to maintain, or any other more varied level of optimization... you instead just have a set of CDs by which to do your damage. No more, no less. You quickly map out or look up online what the best time is to hit those CDs, and that's it. That's your role -- done. Anything else is shared mechanics. For your own role, there's no nuance, no shifting priorities, no real awareness checks; you just follow your schedule.

That's what your insisting is a preferable state for tanks and healers.