Arthars: FFXIV should take a few hints from Dragonflight

[Fyrebrand]

Wow, this guy is irritating to listen to. He talks too fast, and the rapid cuts/clips make it much worse. I'm sorry, I watched for about 5 minutes and couldn't give it any more.

I think I get the point, though. Endgame gearing in FFXIV is pretty weird. I do the time-gated stuff I can do each week, and then hit a wall. I don't even do Extreme/Savage, not sure how that whole gear scene works, but from the sounds of it it's a similar issue, just at a higher item level?

When a new raid or alliance raid comes out, I jump at the chance to play it. But then I get limited to one item drop only, and if I take it I get nothing else for the whole week. Okay, so why would I replay this at all until next week..? There's literally no reason to.

Interesting that other content creators are speaking up about EW right after Zepla makes her video. The optimist in me wants to say they're following the momentum to share their own thoughts on 6.X now that someone has taken the initiative, while the pessimist in me is saying they're doing it for the views. Either way it's got people talking, I 'spose.

Maybe a little of both. There is naturally a lot of cross-pollination of conversation topics among streamers. They literally react to other streamers' videos on their own channels and then give their own takes on it. Or their chat brings it up because it made waves online, so they respond to them.

[Amenara]

Interesting that other content creators are speaking up about EW right after Zepla makes her video. The optimist in me wants to say they're following the momentum to share their own thoughts on 6.X now that someone has taken the initiative, while the pessimist in me is saying they're doing it for the views. Either way it's got people talking, I 'spose.

I really think since Zepla posted her video it just has made these opinions have more of a light shone on them. Xeno has been complaining about some of this stuff forever. In Arthars' case he is just kind of speaking off the cuff in the middle of a stream moreso than sitting down and creating a video on the whole thing. The bigger thing in my mind is how classically FF14 streamers seem to be spending a lot more time than usual playing other games and I think that tells me a lot of their current thoughts on FF14.

Something else to note is Arthars posted this video 2 months ago as well, long before Zeplas.

[Elissar]

No, jesus, no...kill me, please
Blizzard change gearing every patch, mythic+ is a random frankenstein that people complain alot about dungeons and random affixes
Stop. WoW is a lobby game now, a literal mixture between MMORPG, ARPG and lagged events. Those streamers are desperate.

Warframe would be way better. Unironically our tome gear is OP.

[FenyxRising]

No, jesus, no...kill me, please
Blizzard change gearing every patch, mythic+ is a random frankenstein that people complain alot about dungeons and random affixes
Stop. WoW is a lobby game now, a literal mixture between MMORPG, ARPG and lagged events. Those streamers are desperate.

Warframe would be way better. Unironically our tome gear is OP.

FF14 is even more of a lobby game though ?

[Elissar]

while the pessimist in me is saying they're doing it for the views. Either way it's got people talking, I 'spose.

Listen to your pessimism, it will be way better. Read my signature.

[Elissar]

FF14 is even more of a lobby game though ?

Exactly. Another reason why copying a lobby MMO is an awful idea.

[Sindele]

The cool thing about a statement like 'anything would be better than the current gearing situation' is that then you don't actually have to think through the statement at all or risk running into anything that might contradict the idea.

Having been through the graveyard of dead 'catchup' content and witnessed so many cycles of Blizzard's repeated attempts to figure out engaging gearing paradigms, though... I'm not about to buy the idea that it is so very simple.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The cool thing about a statement like 'anything would be better than the current gearing situation' is that then you don't actually have to think through the statement at all or risk running into anything that might contradict the idea.

Having been through the graveyard of dead 'catchup' content and witnessed so many cycles of Blizzard's repeated attempts to figure out engaging gearing paradigms, though... I'm not about to buy the idea that it is so very simple.

I think they are advocating g for a return to the old coil gearing method. Random drops and no books. Instantly increases raid longevity!

[Amenara]

The cool thing about a statement like 'anything would be better than the current gearing situation' is that then you don't actually have to think through the statement at all or risk running into anything that might contradict the idea.

Having been through the graveyard of dead 'catchup' content and witnessed so many cycles of Blizzard's repeated attempts to figure out engaging gearing paradigms, though... I'm not about to buy the idea that it is so very simple.

Well the current system in WoW he talks about where you do content, get gear upgrade that gear with tokens you get from doing content. When you find a better piece in that slot it will have reduced upgrade costs till it gets to the tier that your previous piece of gear was at. WoW also has dungeon drops upgrade to a higher ilvl depending on what patch the game is on, so the base ilvl drops from like heroic dungeons at level cap will go up as the ilvl goes up with new patches. It lets you pretty easily hit the new baseline to do the new content or at least a good starting point for it. Plus with the last major patch the story quest and quests in their new zone gave you a baseline set of gear as well to start upgrades on and to help you get into content without necessarily needing to go through a massive loot treadmill to do anything.

Obviously the dungeon part gets a little weird as FF14 doesn't really do optional dungeons anymore other than the 2 extra level cap dungeons in the x.0 patch and dungeons unlock as the story moves on in subsequent patches as opposed to WoW just having all of their dungeons scale up to level cap as you level so there is no real way to replicate how they approach that aspect. I like Xenos idea about letting Alliance raids drop equivalent ilvl as savage raids to provide alternate gearing (a basic level of horizontal gearing) or catch up gear and with it coming out 4-5 months after the tier has been going on it doesn't affect savage raiders and the loot is limited at release anyway.

[Sindele]

I think they are advocating g for a return to the old coil gearing method. Random drops and no books. Instantly increases raid longevity!

'til they all quit, anyway!

It's funny, because I really am sympathetic to some of the thinking that says 'yes, the market research and the retention data says one thing, but the slow rot that sets in to every game that triples down on it says something way more complicated'. I do think there's ground in the MMO space to reel back some of the comfort-first "QoL" adaptations that have become utterly ubiquitous. But truly, I think I am willing to die on the hill that says this isn't one of them.

Of course, tons of personal bias in that line of thought because I am so, so, so very over gear treadmilling (and, to nod to Fenyx, this feeling is intrinsically tied to why I spend very little time in Savage and have largely not bothered in years.) It's just that I am not only over how XIV does it - I am deeply over most of WoW's forms of it, too.

Well the current system in WoW he talks about where you do content, get gear upgrade that gear with tokens you get from doing content. When you find a better piece in that slot it will have reduced upgrade costs till it gets to the tier that your previous piece of gear was at. WoW also has dungeon drops upgrade to a higher ilvl depending on what patch the game is on, so the base ilvl drops from like heroic dungeons at level cap will go up as the ilvl goes up with new patches. It lets you pretty easily hit the new baseline to do the new content or at least a good starting point for it. Plus with the last major patch the story quest and quests in their new zone gave you a baseline set of gear as well to start upgrades on and to help you get into content without necessarily needing to go through a massive loot treadmill to do anything.

Obviously the dungeon part gets a little weird as FF14 doesn't really do optional dungeons anymore other than the 2 extra level cap dungeons in the x.0 patch and dungeons unlock as the story moves on in subsequent patches as opposed to WoW just having all of their dungeons scale up to level cap as you level so there is no real way to replicate how they approach that aspect. I like Xenos idea about letting Alliance raids drop equivalent ilvl as savage raids to provide alternate gearing (a basic level of horizontal gearing) or catch up gear and with it coming out 4-5 months after the tier has been going on it doesn't affect savage raiders and the loot is limited at release anyway.

The thing is: how does this really materially differ from XIV's treadmill? The sources differ, of course - dungeon gear automatically scaling and story/zone resetting the baseline are absolutely different approaches, but XIV has roughly-equivalent "advancing baselines" in crafted gear and the tomestone cycle, supported by the off-patch augmentations and Alliance Raids.

But, maybe that's the point. Maybe it's really just a matter of perception - where it feels more rote and formulaic because we've been doing it for years, even though loot systems in modern-day MMOs seem to coalesce back into a similar form near-inevitably. Maybe what's really needed is just that fresh coat of paint and shuffling the deck chairs. I don't see that as really 'changing gearing', but...? Food for thought, I suppose.

I wouldn't take anything from you seriously after you said you were good at " Cleric Stance " without any Savage clears during HW, it honestly sounds like you just hate every form of skill expression.

Oh, please tell me about all the deep skill expression present in gearing up. I would love to hear this one.

Did you think Sindele actually watched the video ? No, she just puts down everyone's ideas and acts mightier than thou but really she cannot come up with anything herself either.

I mean, one way or another, you're totally right here. I don't watch Arthars because I think he's obnoxious and very rarely has anything useful to say that I haven't already heard elsewhere, and I do very much love poking at the holes in ideas. As for why I don't often post my own, there's two main reasons: the first is that I'm familiar with what it takes to turn a glimmer of an idea into a production-ready concept, and that takes a level of work I'm not willing to put into throwaway forum posts; and the second is that my literal job description is to tear at the holes in both designs and implementations. It's a mindset that comes naturally to me, and I don't see much reason to turn it off.

Intriguing that you finally care about someone's posting career being overwhelmingly negative, though.