What is Midcore? Why does it matter?

[Raven2014]

In HW, fflogs became a thing, cross world PF became a thing and killed the desire to form FCs and Link Shells, people didn't stay on groups that showed promise, people starting asking for logs and shit, getting statics was way harder, groups just didn't form organically like in ARR. Navigating the current hardcore community is quite exhausting.

These are just one side of the argument that give half a story:

- People didn't ask for log during ARR: hum, that's probably why the first 3 statics I joint back in ARR struggle to beat Coils enrage even at 10 or 15% echo. Miraculous all static I joint since SB never had that problem, I wonder why?

- FC: I tell you two reasons why I'm not in an FC, .drama free and benefit. Some people I played with these days ... we're used to be in the same FC, we just decided all split up and own our own FC house instead.


- People didn't stay on groups that showed promise: not really. People are always desperate for promised group. If the group actually shows promise people will beg to stay. If the group hit the stated progging point and progress. Like, even once the lockout run out, these people would even ask if anyone willing to stay for another round. But groups that wiped multiple time at a point 2-3 behind the one stated in PF. Yeah people will leave. If you gonna blame, blame the bad actors

The rest of your post is -to be honest - feel like you just want to either play the victim card and play charitable with other time.

- Do you know why people get pissed/impatient in learning party where there are few apples who clearly not at the current prog point? It's because these party often time are not the only one available. When content comes out, there are always tone of party available at every prog point. Yet a lot of people still want to join party that well ahead of their own for selfish reason.

- Do you know you don't have to navigate the hardcore community to do the hardcore content? A glance at most recruiting site/discord and one can see they are always a wide range of static available. From weekone - log required all the way down to casual-social static no log we clear when we clear if we clear. What prevent you from joining those group?

A lot of time, complain like yours are often stem of a sense of entitlement. By over-evaluate your own ability and think you deserve somthing more ... often without proof. Then pull the victim card when other put up a wall and prevent you joining their circle. Guess what, even with those wall it's not like the content is locked out for you.


Offering myself as an example: I had cleared Ultimate, I usually get savage done withint 4-5 weeks of release. But this tier, since it's the last one and I'm not in a hurry, I decided to join an "ultra-casual" static.


- There is no time commitment.
- Nobody care about logging.
- Almost every single week we gonna cancel raid, from work reason to someone just decide to get drunk that night.
- We cleared P12 just 3 weeks ago, but hey, we still cleared.
- We're casual and proud of it.


People like you always make it sound like the door is close to you, but often it's only because you try to go through a door that you don't fit.

[Ririta]

Which coil fights were easier than current normals (T3 doesn’t count)

1 was around an easy extreme, 2 got gear cheesed but used to be around a mid extreme it only for allagen Rot and it’s tight enrage, 4 was kinda a joke, 5 was a full savage fight, 6 besides leaf storm being cheesed was a regular savage, 7 was evil, 8 was a normal savage, 9 was a difficult savage, 10 was very hard for a first turn savage, 11 was a normal savage, 12 was a control fight so something incredibly rare these days, 13 was a regular savage

I'd say First Coil Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 4, Second Coil Turn 1 and Turn 2, Final Coil Turn 1. Iffy on Melusine and ADS but honestly, all it would take for a random DF group to kill them nowadays would be for somebody to speak up. All of those had fewer mechanics than today's normals. If people can dodge all the crap that Athena or Themis or that Vampire dude throws at them without getting hit once, they would totally silence ADS and pass Rot, spread out for Heat Lightning and then stack if they didn't get hit, kite an add into the boss, or step in thorns if they're marked.

I'm not snobbing on Coil, if anything I miss its innocence, but the game has evolved a lot. It doesn't looks like it because we've been doing this years, but the mere concept of Erichthonios doing a room wide cleave while you need to look for the color that he's shining and having to DPS all at once would've blown most old Coil raiders away I think. Like, we killed Rafflesia's bulbs because moving to a place that has no thorns was too gigabrain...

Snip

I'm just trying to explain why "everybody did Coil" like Lyth proposed. As somebody who was there, I felt like my experience could add some value to this topic. Honestly it's quite bizarre that you saw that as a complaint.

[Supersnow845]

I'd say First Coil Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 4, Second Coil Turn 1 and Turn 2, Final Coil Turn 1. Iffy on Melusine and ADS but honestly, all it would take for a random DF group to kill them nowadays would be for somebody to speak up. All of those had fewer mechanics than today's normals. If people can dodge all the crap that Athena or Themis or that Vampire dude throws at them without getting hit once, they would totally silence ADS and pass Rot, spread out for Heat Lightning and then stack if they didn't get hit, kite an add into the boss, or step in thorns if they're marked.

I'm not snobbing on Coil, if anything I miss its innocence, but the game has evolved a lot. It doesn't looks like it because we've been doing this years, but the mere concept of Erichthonios doing a room wide cleave while you need to look for the color that he's shining and having to DPS all at once would've blown most old Coil raiders away I think. Like, we killed Rafflesia's bulbs because moving to a place that has no thorns was too gigabrain...

I feel like you overestimate DF

allagen rot would rip DF apart, the PF strat of stacking the party together and letting rot pass amongst the group only worked because of gear bloat it was supposed to be handled like nisi melusine’s phase pushes would kill parties harder than haukke hard, if you didn’t have the party coordination to cheese leafstorm then it would be a mess (assuming you actually had a party awake enough to kill the bees on the honey mechanic), T10 has wildcharge, that heat lightning into wildcharge when the arena is shrinking is no joke of a mechanic

I’ll at least say the fights you mentioned probably lean more towards extreme than savage but they are definitely beyond most DF groups, this is to say nothing of 5 8 9 11 12 and 13

[Renathras]

So this is the problem that a lot of people on this thread are trying to hash out, because everyone will have a biased outlook on what their hard/mid "core" content looks like. If I were to take 7 of my friends and set a schedule to do hunts every, say 16 hours and we do all of them together, does that make us a hardcore static?

I think the difference is whether it is required or not.

Hunts can sometimes be soloed. Back when the Elpis maps hit, our Elpis A ranks were constantly dead since several of the map spawns were near them, leading to them getting killed outside of train schedules. You don't need a coordinated and skilled group to kill hunt marks. Organization there is optional.

Now, clear GolbEx with both healer 2 man circle partners dying all the time so both healers are constantly killed in Gales 2 and Gales 3 and the meteor shower mechanics (I think both of those also have the 2 man circles) so that your healers are constantly killed with no way to save themselves. How's do you get the clear?

Oh, you abandon that group and start another? Or have to grab some friends? Or get people on voice comms? Or keep adjusting your PF requirements? Or get people who have already cleared it to carry you? Or only run it in the first week or two to get your clear before all the HARDCORE PLAYERS have got their clears and stop running it in parties still trying to get their clears?

Yeah, that kinda makes it hardcore content.

While it very much is true that the definitions of content are different, an encounter with around half a dozen body checks, a lot of overlapping mechanics, and some mechanics that give you ~+/-2 sec to get into position before you WILL die, and has several of these during the encounter, often following (or concurrent with) body checks that WILL wipe the party if anyone is out of position or dead? Yeah, that's not "midcore".

ZodEx is midcore, possibly on the easier end of it (IF you have a good danger dorito; if not, snakes eat people for lunch).

HydEx is midcore.

GolbEx is NOT midcore. Anyone who thinks it is is a hardcore player and doesn't realize it/doesn't realize how out of touch their definition of midcore is.

I'd say...

Mhm, this.

Most of the Coil fights are easier than their modern same-number (of 12) fights in current content, with few exceptions. There are some that were substantially harder, and more akin to current, but there were a looooot that were far easier. As you say, P1S's mechanics would have blown people's mind if that had been 1Coil.

I’ll at least say the fights you mentioned probably lean more towards extreme than savage but they are definitely beyond most DF groups,

So is GolbEx. So that's not really saying much. They're still apples-to-apples easier than present content.

[Ririta]

I feel like you overestimate DF

allagen rot would rip DF apart, the PF strat of stacking the party together and letting rot pass amongst the group only worked because of gear bloat it was supposed to be handled like nisi melusine’s phase pushes would kill parties harder than haukke hard, if you didn’t have the party coordination to cheese leafstorm then it would be a mess (assuming you actually had a party awake enough to kill the bees on the honey mechanic), T10 has wildcharge, that heat lightning into wildcharge when the arena is shrinking is no joke of a mechanic

I’ll at least say the fights you mentioned probably lean more towards extreme than savage but they are definitely beyond most DF groups, this is to say nothing of 5 8 9 11 12 and 13

I'm not sure, for example Imdugud is the kind of boss that technically requires no communication whatsoever, outside of which tank's adds to kill first, the fight kinda played itself. ADS is interesting because it was so punishing and it would require somebody to bark orders and put down markers on people's head, but the mental stack was quite low. Like, the "you have 1 job" meme... Oh, on phase pushing, it was post echo but I found Melusine and Rafflesia surprisingly smooth in DF. But I guess people being there means they've beaten Twintania, which created a filter. Maybe this "filter" makes me biased.

But yeah, those other fights were way more difficult.

[DiaDeem]

I said I didn't complete the relic. I've been all the way to hydatos. I just never found the content engaging.

My mistake then, and apologies for that. Sorry you didn't find the content engaging, but... that's pretty much the bulk of what Midcore players want, and I know because I'm one of them.

I'm what I consider a midcore savage player. I spend roughly 7 hours a week in savage.

Well, that's fair but... that's the point: Your think Savage is midcore, so it's no wonder you happen to find EX easy as well, but that's not the content midcore players want. Your engagement is still with hardcore content.

I'm just presenting that you have more available content than you think you do

I said this before, but I'll say it again: Even if we went with your definition of midcore, you're telling me that one EX and two SVG fights every four months is somewhat enough?

Sorry, but I think I fundamentally disagree with almost everything you've said, and I still believe you don't understand what a midcore player wants, as you're mostly (per your own words) a Savage player mostly.

Still, sorry for assuming you didn't even do Hydatos, that's on me.

[DPZ2]

So, 20 EX and 10 SVG fights? 2 EX and 3 SVG? Numbers please. And a poll somewhere that reflects those numbers would be nice.

How about Varient dungeons and their "savage" counterparts?

And a true definition of 'midcore' rather than handwaving, please.

[To everyone: are Mythic+ dungeons in WoW to be considered as 'midcore'?]

[KitingGenbu]

The OP essentially wants a mode between normal and savage with its own lockout it seems. Better off playing wow since this game will never do that (nor does the game design its rewards with that idea in mind which is the bigger issue).

[Xirean]

[To everyone: are Mythic+ dungeons in WoW to be considered as 'midcore'?]

I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't consider Extreme/Unreal to be midcore either.

For exact clarification, the time commitment and scheduling aspect I consider to be separate categories all together. Casual/Mid/Hardcore I think of purely in terms of dfficulty and each has the potential to hold multiple levels of difficulty as well. Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate all fall under hardcore to me and I am fully aware that there are massive differences in mechanical complexity/difficulty for them but each and every one is hardcore as far as I'm concerned.

[Shurrikhan]

[To everyone: are Mythic+ dungeons in WoW to be considered as 'midcore'?]

Up to a point, depending on one's gear and experience and what levels of gear and experience are common in the community for the given key level.

If you can PuG it and clear by just... doing your job (i.e., without any finnicky strats or gimmicks), then yeah. But how far a range of difficulty levels that covers depends on the individual and the community climate.

It's similar to Extremes. Most likely wouldn't consider Thordan Ex on release to be simply midcore and certain outliers since have likewise made PuGing difficult, but otherwise... yeah, for most, they're midcore.


For my part, casual | midcore | hardcore is just a matter of accessibility, but even that has some 2-4 different types, such as... idk, Total Time Investment (to see reward from the content, perhaps including gearing up), Consecutive/Coordinated Time Investment (to make substantial progress), and Skill Requirements.

(Or you might break that down into just Effort Over Time vs. Effort At A Time; whatever. Point being: if we cared only about the amount of hours put in before significant rewards, then even Unsynced mount grinds that roll over on entry could be considered "midcore", but at the same time, we don't want to necessarily demand high hours of play in total or at a time to call something "midcore" if it's nonetheless challenging even if far more intuitive and PuGable than most "hardcore" content.)