What is Midcore? Why does it matter?

[ChrysOCE]

The cracks are starting to show.. I even think Mr. Happy might be out of touch with what Medium / Midcore content actually looks like in an MMO - And what people may want.

I think Savage is used by Raiders to depict Midcore, sometimes even out of spite. But I accept their definition of EX and first tier as being a form of Midcore - So least we can agree there's not enough out there.

But I think it's really weird for people to consider Eureka and Bozja as Casual, when we all admit that only a about a quarter of the community has even managed to get through parts of it, whether out of some form of difficulty, or general frustration of the grind itself.

Probably because there's a real distinction between a casual/midcore/hardcore player and casual/midcore/hardcore content. And that's not even getting into time based distinctions (how long do you play the game for, log in daily for several hours to once a week/fortnight).
If EX is midcore, I don't know what to say. Maybe some of them, maybe they used to be. EXs that require specific timed movement that results in party wipes (not just individual player deaths) if even just one person messes up, is not what I would call midcore content. But a hardcore player, used to savage and doing EX on release, will look at that and go: "yea, its easy, what's the problem?".

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Probably because there's a real distinction between a casual/midcore/hardcore player and casual/midcore/hardcore content. And that's not even getting into time based distinctions (how long do you play the game for, log in daily for several hours to once a week/fortnight).
If EX is midcore, I don't know what to say. Maybe some of them, maybe they used to be. EXs that require specific timed movement that results in party wipes (not just individual player deaths) if even just one person messes up, is not what I would call midcore content. But a hardcore player, used to savage and doing EX on release, will look at that and go: "yea, its easy, what's the problem?".

The problem is "Casual" doesn't mean bad. it just means "doesn't play as much".


You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.


This has always been a problem in XIV for some reason. People use casual for "easy" and not time invested.

[ChrysOCE]

The problem is "Casual" doesn't mean bad. it just means "doesn't play as much".


You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.


This has always been a problem in XIV for some reason. People use casual for "easy" and not time invested.

No, I wouldn't necessarily say it's bad either. But I do think there is a distinction between the player and the content and both can be and are different levels.

[Fawkes]

You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.

[SophiaDL]

The problem is "Casual" doesn't mean bad. it just means "doesn't play as much".


You can have casual players who have ultimate clears because they are that skilled. You can have hardcore players that struggle in the story.


This has always been a problem in XIV for some reason. People use casual for "easy" and not time invested.

[Lyth]

I think this may be influenced by when you first started playing. In ARR, everyone did everything. If you wanted to experience the Coil storyline, you did the Coil fights. So everyone and their chocobo did them, regardless of whether they were 'casual' or 'hardcore'. If you struggled with a fight, your friends helped you out at the end of the tier. The distinctions in playstyle came from how quickly you progressed through content, not based off whether you even tried them in the first place.

While Gordias may have put some people off of raiding, every tier released from Creator on has been very clearable on release for the average player, if you're willing to spend some time learning. It might take you a couple of days or six months, but you can get through it if you stick with it. I just think that rebranding the content as 'Savage' probably put some of the newer iterations of players off even trying at all, though, despite it being incredibly accessible. You do have to get over your fear of wiping groups though. Absolutely everyone will cause wipes. Just learn something new from each one.

I don't think that the statement that 'Extreme/Savage are aimed at the midcore playerbase' is intended to give offense. It's a statement of fact - pretty much anyone can work through it, given enough time. If you're not even getting your feet wet, how do you know how difficult it is to swim? What's being described is not even 'casual', it's just flat out non-participatory.

[Ririta]

I think this may be influenced by when you first started playing. In ARR, everyone did everything. If you wanted to experience the Coil storyline, you did the Coil fights. So everyone and their chocobo did them, regardless of whether they were 'casual' or 'hardcore'. If you struggled with a fight, your friends helped you out at the end of the tier. The distinctions in playstyle came from how quickly you progressed through content, not based off whether you even tried them in the first place.

While Gordias may have put some people off of raiding, every tier released from Creator on has been very clearable on release for the average player, if you're willing to spend some time learning. It might take you a couple of days or six months, but you can get through it if you stick with it. I just think that rebranding the content as 'Savage' probably put some of the newer iterations of players off even trying at all, though, despite it being incredibly accessible. You do have to get over your fear of wiping groups though. Absolutely everyone will cause wipes. Just learn something new from each one.

I don't think that the statement that 'Extreme/Savage are aimed at the midcore playerbase' is intended to give offense. It's a statement of fact - pretty much anyone can work through it, given enough time. If you're not even getting your feet wet, how do you know how difficult it is to swim? What's being described is not even 'casual', it's just flat out non-participatory.

A lot of Coil was easier than a lot of normal fights today. It was easy to get started in Coil. I think people have been sleeping on how much more difficult the game has become. Groups and Link Shells just fell on your lap if you could press buttons and commit to a schedule, even if it's 2 hours on saturday and sunday... but even Coil had its own gatekeeping, Ceruleum Processing Plant was super lonely and sad compared to Wineport.

In HW, fflogs became a thing, cross world PF became a thing and killed the desire to form FCs and Link Shells, people didn't stay on groups that showed promise, people starting asking for logs and shit, getting statics was way harder, groups just didn't form organically like in ARR. Navigating the current hardcore community is quite exhausting.

[Supersnow845]

A lot of Coil was easier than a lot of normal fights today. It was easy to get started in Coil. I think people have been sleeping on how much more difficult the game has become. Groups and Link Shells just fell on your lap if you could press buttons and commit to a schedule, even if it's 2 hours on saturday and sunday... but even Coil had its own gatekeeping, Ceruleum Processing Plant was super lonely and sad compared to Wineport.

In HW, fflogs became a thing, cross world PF became a thing and killed the desire to form FCs and Link Shells, people didn't stay on groups that showed promise, people starting asking for logs and shit, getting statics was way harder, groups just didn't form organically like in ARR. Navigating the current hardcore community is quite exhausting.

Which coil fights were easier than current normals (T3 doesn’t count)

1 was around an easy extreme, 2 got gear cheesed but used to be around a mid extreme it only for allagen Rot and it’s tight enrage, 4 was kinda a joke, 5 was a full savage fight, 6 besides leaf storm being cheesed was a regular savage, 7 was evil, 8 was a normal savage, 9 was a difficult savage, 10 was very hard for a first turn savage, 11 was a normal savage, 12 was a control fight so something incredibly rare these days, 13 was a regular savage

[Ririta]

Which coil fights were easier than current normals (T3 doesn’t count)

1 was around an easy extreme, 2 got gear cheesed but used to be around a mid extreme it only for allagen Rot and it’s tight enrage, 4 was kinda a joke, 5 was a full savage fight, 6 besides leaf storm being cheesed was a regular savage, 7 was evil, 8 was a normal savage, 9 was a difficult savage, 10 was very hard for a first turn savage, 11 was a normal savage, 12 was a control fight so something incredibly rare these days, 13 was a regular savage

I'd say First Coil Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 4, Second Coil Turn 1 and Turn 2, Final Coil Turn 1. Iffy on Melusine and ADS but honestly, all it would take for a random DF group to kill them nowadays would be for somebody to speak up. All of those had fewer mechanics than today's normals. If people can dodge all the crap that Athena or Themis or that Vampire dude throws at them without getting hit once, they would totally silence ADS and pass Rot, spread out for Heat Lightning and then stack if they didn't get hit, kite an add into the boss, or step in thorns if they're marked.

I'm not snobbing on Coil, if anything I miss its innocence, but the game has evolved a lot. It doesn't looks like it because we've been doing this years, but the mere concept of Erichthonios doing a room wide cleave while you need to look for the color that he's shining and having to DPS all at once would've blown most old Coil raiders away I think. Like, we killed Rafflesia's bulbs because moving to a place that has no thorns was too gigabrain...

Snip

I'm just trying to explain why "everybody did Coil" like Lyth proposed. As somebody who was there, I felt like my experience could add some value to this topic. Honestly it's quite bizarre that you saw that as a complaint.

[Supersnow845]

I'd say First Coil Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 4, Second Coil Turn 1 and Turn 2, Final Coil Turn 1. Iffy on Melusine and ADS but honestly, all it would take for a random DF group to kill them nowadays would be for somebody to speak up. All of those had fewer mechanics than today's normals. If people can dodge all the crap that Athena or Themis or that Vampire dude throws at them without getting hit once, they would totally silence ADS and pass Rot, spread out for Heat Lightning and then stack if they didn't get hit, kite an add into the boss, or step in thorns if they're marked.

I'm not snobbing on Coil, if anything I miss its innocence, but the game has evolved a lot. It doesn't looks like it because we've been doing this years, but the mere concept of Erichthonios doing a room wide cleave while you need to look for the color that he's shining and having to DPS all at once would've blown most old Coil raiders away I think. Like, we killed Rafflesia's bulbs because moving to a place that has no thorns was too gigabrain...

I feel like you overestimate DF

allagen rot would rip DF apart, the PF strat of stacking the party together and letting rot pass amongst the group only worked because of gear bloat it was supposed to be handled like nisi melusine’s phase pushes would kill parties harder than haukke hard, if you didn’t have the party coordination to cheese leafstorm then it would be a mess (assuming you actually had a party awake enough to kill the bees on the honey mechanic), T10 has wildcharge, that heat lightning into wildcharge when the arena is shrinking is no joke of a mechanic

I’ll at least say the fights you mentioned probably lean more towards extreme than savage but they are definitely beyond most DF groups, this is to say nothing of 5 8 9 11 12 and 13