G-give it Back T---T; !! (Scholar Edition)

[Renathras]

If you seriously think this was a jab at you, you actually didn't read any of the posts that came before. You said I never pitched the SGE idea, I gave you evidence that I mentioned the same thing, then you try and hit me with the technicality of "tHaT wAsN't A qUeStIoN".

You know what? I'm done. You've been nothing but petty and dismissive to me after some perceived slight when I've been nothing but measured and reasonable with you. You're so tiring to converse with, you just attack me for no reason and you view things that aren't even an attack on you as an attack. Have it your way, I'm not returning to this conversation.

Oh my god.

/facepalm

grumblegrumblegrumble...

EDIT: You know what though? I'm just going to delete the post. Because I really DON'T want to be a dick about things, even when it's defending myself from someone lying about me.

But god, this BS is so...TIRING.

So, hyperbole?

Things being connected isn't how hyperbole is defined.

But it's what's happened. No apology, people upvoting her "spirited exit" post, supporting (a) a lie and (b) victim blaming...no one saying "Yes, that was a lie about Ren" or defending me, your post being a retort to my defense rather than supportive, yeah...

Though if you can, show me where it's happened. I can think of exactly 3 times someone has come to my defense in any of these many many conversations, and exactly one time someone apologized. More often, people either continue to lie, refuse to show evidence, and if I can prove the lie where it leaves no doubt, attack me more and stomp off trying to make me out as the bad guy for clearing my name. And, every time, they get supported and I get attacked MORE. I'm damned no matter what I do at this point.

[Renalt]

So when's the wedding and am I invited?

[Shurrikhan]

When I say people here just want to attack me, refuse to see when their attacks are unfounded, never apologize if they get it wrong, and never support me or stick up for me even when I've been unfairly attacked; this is the kind of crap I'm talking about.

So, hyperbole?

Nothing else quite connects those circumstances to reality, individually or collectively.

If you're offended by others not reaching the standards you'd like, maybe start by reaching them yourself?

You frequently treat disagreement with you as if such could only come idiocy or moral flaw, and concurrence with some part of your ideas as some sort of seed of cognitive or moral redemption. Neither is the case.

If people are failing to be convinced, it is more likely because you are not convincing than it is some agenda against your personhood. Yes, if you mess up enough times, that will predispose people towards further scrutiny against similar claims in later interactions, too, but that is hardly unnatural or conspiratorial and can likewise be corrected with time.

____________________________

This is a summary of my more recent, humble take on a SGE rework:

• Barriers: Barriers applied E. Diagosis or E. Prognosis no longer grant Addersting upon breaking. All barriers applied by spells now restore 400 of your MP when they break.
• Dosis: Adjust potency. Costs no MP. Kardia effect is removed.
• Eukrasian Dosis: Duration is reduced to 15 seconds. Kardia effect is removed. Grants 1 Addersting.
• Dyskrasia > Paroxysm: Becomes ranged instead of point-blank. Potency is the same as Dosis with dropoff. Costs 800 MP; refunds the MP when hitting multiple enemies. Kardia effect is removed. (AoE spam and single target mobility spell)
• Eukrasian Paroxysm *New*: Applies a weaker DoT in an AoE. Does not stack with Eukrasian Dosis; only for AoE DoT application. No Kardia effect.
• Phlegma: Cooldown is reduced to 20 seconds. Kardia effect is removed.
• Toxikon: Potency stays the same as Dosis'. Becomes OGCD.
• Ekkokardia *New*: Same potency as Dosis (AoE). Costs 800 MP. Restores HP to your Kardia target with 400 potency.
• Eukrasian Ekkokardia: Same as Ekkokardia, but instead applies a 300 potency barrier to your Kardia target.
• Pneuma: Potency is increased. Cooldown is reduced to 55 seconds. Kardia effect is removed. Burst healing is removed. Applies Zoe to all nearby allies instead, increasing the HP restored to them from your healing spells. Enables 1 cast of Soma.
• Soma *New*: Replaces Ekkokardia on the hotbar for 1 cast. Point-blank AoE the size of Dancer dances that is the same potency as Dosis and grants healing and a barrier to all party members in range.

What I'm seeing from this so far is mostly just that there is no longer any free Kardia healing... but you've also made it more potent, almost akin to a less "clunky" but more button-bloated take on damage-neutral but MP-spending GCD heals.

And while you've reduced SGE's free healing by stripping it of current Kardia and Pneuma healing... that still seems to largely run the same issues as Ren's ideas before, all while... not really feeling any more "dps healer"-esque, to be honest.

Insofar as I presently understand the result, I can't say I'm a fan.

Other, Smaller Critiques:

• I especially do not understand the purpose of EuDosis given its generating Addersting for a Dosis-potency oGCD Toxicon, since it'd then just be a superior Dosis... meaning it'd actually be spammable and thereby grant SGE unlimited mobility via Eukrasia.
  
  
• Paraoxym seems like button-bloat considering that it effectively just replaces Dosis (or EuDosis) in AoE but offers no value to ST.
  
  
• Barriers now refunding 400 MP upon breaking also seems like it would provide even less gameplay interaction than the existing Addersting. Is that mechanic even fitting now that you've given SGE access to DPS-neutral GCDs limited only by MP via Kardia and Ekkokardia?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Don't put them on your hotbar then.

^This, literally.^

Same goes to whoever's so adamant to not see any more depths into their kits IF they somehow got added: then don't use it. Just glaroilficosis spam. Why suddenly it matter to you (general you)?

[ty_taurus]

So, hyperbole?

Nothing else quite connects those circumstances to reality, individually or collectively.

If you're offended by others not reaching the standards you'd like, maybe start by reaching them yourself?

You frequently treat disagreement with you as if such could only come idiocy or moral flaw, and concurrence with some part of your ideas as some sort of seed of cognitive or moral redemption. Neither is the case.

If people are failing to be convinced, it is more likely because you are not convincing than it is some agenda against your personhood. Yes, if you mess up enough times, that will predispose people towards further scrutiny against similar claims in later interactions, too, but that is hardly unnatural or conspiratorial and can likewise be corrected with time.

____________________________



What I'm seeing from this so far is mostly just that there is no longer any free Kardia healing... but you've also made it more potent, almost akin to a less "clunky" but more button-bloated take on damage-neutral but MP-spending GCD heals.

And while you've reduced SGE's free healing by stripping it of current Kardia and Pneuma healing... that still seems to largely run the same issues as Ren's ideas before, all while... not really feeling any more "dps healer"-esque, to be honest.

Insofar as I presently understand the result, I can't say I'm a fan.

Other, Smaller Critiques:

• I especially do not understand the purpose of EuDosis given its generating Addersting for a Dosis-potency oGCD Toxicon, since it'd then just be a superior Dosis... meaning it'd actually be spammable and thereby grant SGE unlimited mobility via Eukrasia.
  
  
• Paraoxym seems like button-bloat considering that it effectively just replaces Dosis (or EuDosis) in AoE but offers no value to ST.
  
  
• Barriers now refunding 400 MP upon breaking also seems like it would provide even less gameplay interaction than the existing Addersting. Is that mechanic even fitting now that you've given SGE access to DPS-neutral GCDs limited only by MP via Kardia and Ekkokardia?

Sorry, I didn't go into all the specifics and realize there are details I left out that are important, but I'm gonna go hibernate cause my enthusiasm is in the negatives at the moment. Let's just call it garbage for now and if I decide to feel better about the game maybe I'll better clarify.

[Connor]

Isn’t this thread about Scholar?

Remember Eye for an Eye? It felt like a ‘staple’ Scholar ability but I guess it got thrown into the ‘fluff skill’ bin.

It’s sad that so many of Scholars indirect healing methods have been replaced with a bunch of super powered direct healing abilities.. It felt more unique leaning into the ‘buffs party to reduce damage so it doesn’t need to heal’. They could’ve fed into that with DoTs also having debuff effects. Basically PvP Scholar lol.

I don’t get why Shadow Flare was removed either, since when you think about it wasn’t it kinda helpful for healing as well as damage?

Slowing enemy attack frequency naturally leads to the party taking less damage overall, so doesn’t replacing it with Art of War just adds more pressure to healers instead of less? Like, they kinda went against their own designs lol. Then again, it’s not like it was ever ‘spammable’, and it got the cool-down treatment in like Stormblood anyway. Plus there’s the whole ‘one ground effect per person’ thing so then you have to choose between that or Sacred Soil (or rotate them between cooldowns so one is always up lol)

I think they’d please more people if Scholar was designed around that idea of ‘buffs / debuffs to reduce damage for less healing’. Offensive spells that debuff enemies to weaken would still serve the purpose of being supportive and ‘new healer friendly’, and they’d also give the job more offensive spells to use when not healing (i.e 80% of the time lol). Like, using PvP Biolysis as an example, a new healer could use it just to reduce damage dealt by the enemy whenever they feel they need it,, whilst a more experienced player could maximise uptime for more dps. I think Scholar should have actual buff spells too, but that’s a lot more controversial so I won’t get into it lol

Lastly while we’re on the topic of Scholar’s offensive actions, what’s up with Ruin II still being, well…Ruin II lol. I may be mistaken but no other job in the game is still using an attack animation from 2.0, so why does Scholar still have to fling magic pebbles like it’s 2.0 instead of having something cool and thematic

[Shurrikhan]

Isn’t this thread about Scholar?

Remember Eye for an Eye? It felt like a ‘staple’ Scholar ability but I guess it got thrown into the ‘fluff skill’ bin.

To be fair, it was kinda garbage. It was Reprisal applied in the style of Arm's Length's slow, but with only a 20% chance of activating each time an enemy hit you... and on a 3-minute cooldown. Against slower-attacking enemies, you could go the full duration without it activating. Boss both AAs slow and you popped E4E before a long cast? Wasted.

But, sure, they could have done something more/else with that theme of reactive/retributive barrier tech.

I don’t get why Shadow Flare was removed either, since when you think about it wasn’t it kinda helpful for healing as well as damage?

Similar story here. It was 1-minute-CD Salted Earth lasting 15s per cast at 50p/tick... with a 5% slow. Across the whole of a 7-minute fight, it wouldn't likely save you a single GCD of healing.

attack frequency naturally leads to the party taking less damage overall

That only really applies to the tank, as iirc the slow only affects AAs and AAs are single target... and directed at the tank.

so doesn’t replacing it with Art of War just adds more pressure to healers instead of less? Like, they kinda went against their own designs lol.

Similarly, that depends. If it was a substantial sustain nerf for which SCH wasn't compensated and if SCH would otherwise have been balanced, then its removal would have been bad since it would leave SCH undertuned. But... there was compensation, so it isn't really "against" any particular design.

It just traded out percentile sustain only useful proportionately to incoming tank AA damage (and likely to be anti-synergetic with tank defensive CDs) for flat sustain that can be used on anyone (and better synergizes with tank defensive CDs).

[Renathras]

If you're offended by others not reaching the standards you'd like, maybe start by reaching them yourself?

This runs both ways.

You frequently treat disagreement with you as if such could only come idiocy or moral flaw,

No, I don't. That you seem to think this is part of the problem. How much you have to assume, "interpret", and "see implied" from my posts to come up with this. Worse:

and concurrence with some part of your ideas as some sort of seed of cognitive or moral redemption.

MORAL redemption? What?

Good god, you're high on the GOOD stuff, aren't you? MORAL?

Not only have I NEVER considered agreement with me to lead to ANY kind of "redemption", equating a debate/discussion with MORAL redemption, in particular, is absurd, especially since at no point in being on these forums have I ever engaged in or made statements relating to morality NOR expressed a person agreeing with me has achieved any kind of moral state, much less a redemption.

This is what I'm talking about. You don't just have to make up something to believe THAT, you have to make up something insane to do so, since it's divorced from any reasonable conclusion based on the facts or past posts I've made OR others have made in response or concurrence.

Good god. Yes, THIS is why there's a problem here. Holy hell...

.

EDIT:

Think I'm going to step out of this conversation because holy hell, I don't know what I just read, but it's some Grade A lunacy. Not based on disagreement with me - that's not how I define insanity - but just being so hateful, spiteful, and antagonistic that it's completely divorced from reality.

EDIT2:

Plus, I feel like it can be a bit of a slippery slope to look at things purely in terms of optimisations. Of course all things needs to be strictly balanced, but at the same time I feel like devs have slid all the way to the bottom of that slope.
Especially when it comes to things like offensive options for healers; ‘why give healers 2 DoTs when they can just have one stronger one?’, ‘why not put all their attack potency into the one skill’, etc. It’s perfectly optimised and balanced, but I’d say it’s also less ‘fulfilling’ really. I guess the real problem is them deciding for themselves where and how people optimise, rather than giving players the option themselves. It’s like, they took away all the indirect / non-healing options from healers then were like ‘look, now you can optimise healing so much!’. Which, is nice, but also means 200+ Broil casts per encounter lol.

It's a hard needle to thread.

For example, WoW's healers all do different damage and different healing amounts, so balance is all over the place. This frequently leads to blacklisted classes and OP ones. Think like Tanks right now where WAR is basically an automatic include for most groups at this point., but far far worse.

It kind of comes down to "How well can players be trusted to not misbehave due to imbalance?", and the answer is "Generally not that well in high end content". That leads to the Devs having a hyper-focus on balance.

Note that this just means general output (healing for healers, survivability for tanks, and damage for everyone), and even then, there are metas (e.g. SCH/AST because gear scaling has made their buffs lead to more party damage than WHM/SGE's higher personal baseline damage). So how do they thread this needle where the players won't misuse imbalance to build the most efficient thing possible?

I'm not sure they can, so they go for the most "balanced" they can in response to that.

EDIT3:

Based on previous times this sentiment has been given, see you tomorrow?

Worked for Aravell.

I'll wait with baited breath for you to make a snarky comment to her for doing so.

[ForsakenRoe]

Think I'm going to step out of this conversation because holy hell, I don't know what I just read, but it's some Grade A lunacy. Not based on disagreement with me - that's not how I define insanity - but just being so hateful, spiteful, and antagonistic that it's completely divorced from reality.

Based on previous times this sentiment has been given, see you tomorrow?

[Connor]

snip

I do get what you’re saying - I mean, using either ability wasn’t exactly the epitome of ‘turning the tables’ on the enemy. I guess it’s more the concept that I think could’ve stayed (and been heavily adjusted lol), like a ‘shield that weakens enemy’ as a contrast to Adloquium or ‘bad dome that weakens enemy’ to contrast with Sacred Soil.

Plus, I feel like it can be a bit of a slippery slope to look at things purely in terms of optimisations. Of course all things needs to be strictly balanced, but at the same time I feel like devs have slid all the way to the bottom of that slope.
Especially when it comes to things like offensive options for healers; ‘why give healers 2 DoTs when they can just have one stronger one?’, ‘why not put all their attack potency into the one skill’, etc. It’s perfectly optimised and balanced, but I’d say it’s also less ‘fulfilling’ really. I guess the real problem is them deciding for themselves where and how people optimise, rather than giving players the option themselves. It’s like, they took away all the indirect / non-healing options from healers then were like ‘look, now you can optimise healing so much!’. Which, is nice, but also means 200+ Broil casts per encounter lol.

Surely there can be a balance between ‘optimal’ and ‘flavourful’ (for want of a better word lol). Personally, I think some fluff is fine as long as it still has a purpose and fits thematically. Of course nobody wants to see an overgrown sheep, but I don’t imagine they’d want to see a bald one either lol.