G-give it Back T---T; !! (Scholar Edition)

[BaconBits]

EDIT:
Funny how I can post an opinion, actually explained.

Someone posts a snarky rebuttal that adds exactly zero to the conversation: 6 likes.

This is why we can't have nice things/nuanced and respectful conversations, folks. Be better, people.

Does it grieve you, to see the depths of your own weakness laid bare?

[Fawkes]

Nah, just make all healer dots AoE.

Dropping single target Aero/Dia on multiple mobs in a trash pull isn't fun and probably not optimal use of GCDs, just let me plop an instant dot on all of them and spam my holys.

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm just gonna say 'Miss the DOTs, me' and also request Miasma/Shadowflare return. Not even that fussed about Bane

If one were to accept that Flash proves that 'tanks can keep aggro without doing damage', then they have to accept that 'hold aggro' is as binary as 'keep party alive', once you have 'enough', the excess is wasted. That's the real reason tanks 'have' to have damage as part of their kit, and if it's true of tanks, it's true of healers. Just, SE pretends they do not see it, because they don't play healers. As others have said, they design healers not as healer players/for healer players, but from the perspective of 'how to reduce the chance a DPS player is inconvenienced by a low-skilled healer player'.

I can't wait to be told how to have fun by my betters, and how I should be very thankful for the gracious gift of 'yet another bloody 2min heal CD' in Purgation at level 100.

As an aside, in direct counter to the 'Everquest/WOW' stuff, there's a minigame in Runescape, added in 2007. While the main game doesn't have roles, this minigame does: Attackers, who deal damage, Defenders, who 'lure monster onto trap', Collectors who pick up eggs to fire a cannon (this one doesn't have a trinity analogue), and Healer. And while Healer does have to keep the team alive (they cannot even heal themselves, it's 100% on the Healer to do it), said Healer does also have to feed poison food to the enemy Healers. Yes, 'even back then 26 years ago', Runescape managed to work this out. So it's not quite as cut and dry as implied. One MMO went one way, a couple others went a different way with it. But now, more and more games (not just MMOs) have moved towards 'healers have some meaningful contributions they can make during downtimes' rather than 'reduced how often downtimes occur', because not only is it 'more fun for the player' in a wider variety of situations, it's just so much simpler to implement for the devs. It's all well and good saying 'we shouldn't settle for the easy fix' but the budget and devtime restrictions say otherwise. Something Something 'this is the compromise position' and all that

[Renathras]

Your stance is....

You were literally telling people that SCH should change and they should go play SGE if they don't like it.

But good god, no. I said IF one should change, it should be SGE. Not one MUST change and it MUST be SGE. At least get the argument right. Also:

You always say that people who want SMN to change should go play BLM, how is this different?

...when have I ever said that specifically? o.O "always" implies multiple times/frequently/all the time. I can't even remember the last time I talked with people here about SMN. But please, do show examples of me "always" saying this?

We stan a snarky king.

Hello, Kettle, how are you doing today?

Does it grieve you, to see the depths of your own weakness laid bare?

No. It grieves me to see the depths of the forums' collective weakness laid bare.

Nah, just make all healer dots AoE.

Dropping single target Aero/Dia on multiple mobs in a trash pull isn't fun and probably not optimal use of GCDs, just let me plop an instant dot on all of them and spam my holys.

Hm...that's...an interesting take. Not sure if I agree with that one, and I hate DoTs. XD

.

EDIT:

Just gonna put this here instead of carrying on:

My responses to you have been nothing but neutral.

Uh...

...gonna table this one for now:

There was no reason to add a snarky TLDR to your post, but...

You're going to have to be WAY more specific.

My first post here:

Honestly, I agree.

The "4 Healers Model" I constantly push is simple in concept, but here applies: The Healers should all play differently, so that all different kinds of players can take on the role and enjoy it. Like how Tanks have GNB as a basically Melee DPS option in the "Blue" role.

Personally, I wouldn't enjoy it, but I do think that SCH having its SB kit back would be one of the quickest ways to make a lot of currently jaded healers happy, since they'd have that option of a more DPS focused Job. While I would say that some of the kit would probably have to be pruned and some abilities combined (Fey Blessing heal added to Whispering Dawn instead of being two separate buttons, for example...?), as adding 4 buttons to SCH would make it the Job with the most actions by far, having 2 or 3 more than PLD has today...I do think it would be best for the game to do so.

I DON'T think it should be done to all healer Jobs, as some were decidedly worse then (SB WHM, and I will die on this hill, was the single worst iteration of WHM in FFXIV; EW is miles better), but SCH is one case of the SB kit probably being an improvement, as long as it gets to keep some of the things it has learned since, like Expedience and Seraph.

.

Overall, I fully support this idea. o/

Second:

Unlikely. SCH has long been meta (since...ARR?), I think every expansion SCH has been part of the meta. But it's almost always (if not always) been played less than WHM, as has AST. In some subsections of content (e.g. Savage), it can go one way or the other, but in general and overall in the playerbase, this has always been true. Even in high end content, WHM has still been represented, even when in reduced percentages. Even right now, WHM is only 3% of the top 50 finishes in the P9S, but in the rest is 20%, 19%, 11%, and 24% (P2) respectively per the abacus.

You would see a lot of players that want more DPS focus in their rotation swapping to SCH, but you'd still see a lot of the other healer types at the same time, like as not.

At the end of the day, in low end content, it genuinely doesn't matter, and in high end content, outside of specifically the speedrunning community, it's the player (since very high end players can do good on most any Job in their role and sometimes off-roles) and what they personally prefer that teams tend to take.

Right now, SCH/AST is the meta because of all the support and AST basically being "barrier-lite pure healer" making it hyper-meta, and WHM and SGE are still more played in most content in the game and somewhat healthy in representation in the top 50 kills (which IS the speedrunning community, come to think of it), and even more represented outside of it. The meta would always be SCH/AST since buffs and barriers-a-plenty, but that doesn't really change how most people play, it seems. If history is a guide, anyway.

.

So giving SCH and AST their SB kits back doesn't really have much in the way of detriment - everything has a cost as well as benefits, but it's a pretty low-cost/high net benefit thing. Making WHM back to the SB kit would be a lot higher cost/lower benefit, though, and possibly net negative.

Third post:

Uh...

...strong No.

Some people feel that way, but many don't want to be budget DPS or DPS at home or ARPG "supports". They want to be HEALERS, and this game did have that as a role in 1.X and 2.X and 3.X excepting SCH getting squirrely. Not everyone wants to be a "long range DPS" who is there just to make the other DPS players have more fun. A "support b--ch", if you will.

People wanting to HEAL on the HEALER role isn't a weird thing. People wanting to DPS on the HEALER role kinda is. But a good game can accommodate all kinds. WoW, for example, had Discipline "heal by dealing damage" Priests alongside Holy Priests. RIFT had Chloromancer Mages (heal by dealing damage) alongside more traditional "target party member, cast heal" healers. ARR did this with WHM as a healer and SCH as a support hybrid healer/DPSer. Everquest managed this 25 years ago. The idea that the only option is going "dps at home who occasionally heals the REAL dpsers so they can have fun fighting the dragon" is absurd.

(Note the EDIT was made after the following...)
To which I got this in response:

Common Renathras L, move along people.

Super long so only quoting it for the tag, but this was the fourth post, and there wasn't any TL;DR for it:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

(And if you meant the being cheeky at the start, that was something you said yourself...) The closest thing to a TL;DR I gave you in this post was: "Still, the point stands that a healer role not built around DPSing and DPS rotations is something entirely doable in our reality in games that revolve around combat.", which is a summary and not snarky at all. And then I agreed with you on SGE.

Maybe you meant this one, my fifth post:

That if one should change, it should be SGE, not SCH. It should be "If you want that, go play SCH" not "If you want that, go play SGE". SGE should do something else.
...
TL;DR:

I get this is one of your favorite go-to counter-arguments, but it's a REALLY bad one.

...but that wasn't snarky. It's one of your favored counter-arguments, but I feel it's a really bad one and I explained why I think it's a really bad one. There was no snark in that TL;DR. I feel this may be one of those cases where you imagine slight that didn't originate from me/that I didn't present.

Anyway, just so you know, that wasn't snark, actually. I was being entirely neutral towards you - just as you are to me - when typing that out and hitting Post Quick Reply.

Just remembered, so I figure it's worth sharing in case it slipped other people's minds too:

That's great...but that's not FFXIV. Further, that's not even how all the Tanks worked in WoW. Nor does that change what I pointed out above that Ty himself mentioned - no one's actually asking for it. You can argue about why that is or other ancillary arguments, but the fact remains, there are some healers that do want slimmed down damage kits, there aren't Tanks asking for Flash spam. When there are seriously a lot of Tanks asking for that, then we can have that discussion and start asking the Devs to implement a Flashspam Tank into the game.

Where, in this thread,...

There's just no point arguing this. You and I seem to read each other's posts and see things that the other person didn't put there, so...I guess that's that. I just don't think it's a good argument, but it's fine.

Eh, what else is new? ... but robbing Scholar of its tools and giving it nothing in return was a crime and we need to acknowledge that.

See my first post above in the first hb: I agreed with this.

I personally would like to see each healer inflict & interact differently with their DoT.

I personally would like to see healers have different damage kits, including some healer not even having a DoT. But for the love of god, no Diacloud. That sounds miserable. Aero 3 (upgrading to Banish for the theme) would be cool. Though maybe the lower level one could be Water spells instead of "Aero 3". Just have Aero 1-2-3 be one spell line for single target instant cast DoTs and Water 1-2-3 be the AOE ones (damage gain so used in single target as well) that upgrades to Banish where Aero upgrades to Dia. WHM being grounded and "routine" would be broken by stupid Diaclouds. No thank you.

[ty_taurus]

Hello, Kettle, how are you doing today?

My responses to you have been nothing but neutral. There was no reason to add a snarky TLDR to your post, but you made the choice to throw stones. Personally, I don't really care about others being snarky because I can take it, but you have a 0 tolerance policy on snark being used against you, so I don't appreciate you making comments that you would chastise others for making toward you. If you are just going to try and egg me on, then I don't foresee that conversation going anywhere anyway.

[ForsakenRoe]

Just remembered, so I figure it's worth sharing in case it slipped other people's minds too:

Re: Tanks have to deal damage as part of their gameplay cos 'that is how to generate aggro', and this:

Holy Paladins (healers) in WoW's Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King era (widely considered the height of the game's expansion history) routinely engaged in combat casting Holy Light over and over again on the MT due to extremely high mana efficiency big heals with a high crit chance and high chance to refund mana (on crits)

Prot Warriors (tanks) in WoW's Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK era (widely blah blah) routinely engaged in combat by using Sunder Armor over and over again on the mobs to generate threat due to it being extremely high GCD>Threat generation efficiency, static Threat value that isn't decreased by damage-down debuffs/Defensive Stance's reduced damage effect, a talent to make it cost less rage from the Prot tree, and a very nice debuff to the enemy to make everyone's physical attacks deal a bit more damage

The gameplay of the Prot Warrior back then was in fact Sunder Armor spam to keep threat. The reward for being 'good at tank' (ie being able to Sunder faster than the DPS could rip aggro) was that the DPS could push more damage instead of having to hold back a bit. But the Prot Warrior did not deal damage with Sunder Armor, 'it does damage' was not a hard requirement of the skill for it to generate threat. So, that 'most popular era' of WOW shows that tanks don't necessarily need to deal damage, to generate threat, and to have a fun playstyle. So why do they 'need' it now? Because Classic WOW showed us the answer: back then, we were not good at the game. Now, you'd often see Prot Warriors tanking in Berserker/Battle Stance. Getting 5 stacks of SA and then using stuff like Heroic Strike and Hamstring to dump excess rage for more damage. Tanking with dual wield instead of sword/shield, even in raids. Or even using 2h weapons to tank, eg pulling big with Ravager and using it's proc to mow down a massive pack before the comparative lack of defensive capability causes any issues. The gameplay systems of that time haven't changed with the Classic rerelease, but the way players approached them, with over 15 years of theorycrafting and private server practice, absolutely changed the landscape of the game

Just food for thought, it seems to me that over time, players in general have moved towards a more 'push damage' mentality across every role, and the times where a 'return to the old ways' have been tried (increasing HPS needed in WOW recently apparently, but also here with the accidental 'every OGCD is really weak' on 5.0 AST) have received a fairly large amount of pushback from players

[Aravell]

You were literally telling people that SCH should change and they should go play SGE if they don't like it.

But good god, no. I said IF one should change, it should be SGE. Not one MUST change and it MUST be SGE. At least get the argument right.

Where, in this thread, have I said I wanted SCH to change? I've said constantly in this thread that I want the Aetherflow gauge to stay as it is. My argument is that SGE has a gauge used entirely for healing right now and that those who want the Aetherflow gauge to change to be only healing abilities should go play SGE, is that so hard to understand? You're the one bringing up SGE changes for some weird reason.

Anyway, this is the last time I will restate my argument. Sorry to Ty for taking up so much of his thread with this argument.

[ty_taurus]

Where, in this thread, have I said I wanted SCH to change? I've said constantly in this thread that I want the Aetherflow gauge to stay as it is. My argument is that SGE has a gauge used entirely for healing right now and that those who want the Aetherflow gauge to change to be only healing abilities should go play SGE, is that so hard to understand? You're the one bringing up SGE changes for some weird reason.

Anyway, this is the last time I will restate my argument. Sorry to Ty for taking up so much of his thread with this argument.

Eh, what else is new? The only reason I copied the Kaiten thread was because I wanted to bring more attention to Scholar's identity as an offensive DoT healer deserving the same attention as Kaiten, and that Scholar has been damaged like Samurai has been. Now, I've also said just going back to Stormblood Scholar is not the best thing you can possibly do--that trying to evolve Scholar beyond that point would be better, but robbing Scholar of its tools and giving it nothing in return was a crime and we need to acknowledge that.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Nah, just make all healer dots AoE.

Dropping single target Aero/Dia on multiple mobs in a trash pull isn't fun and probably not optimal use of GCDs, just let me plop an instant dot on all of them and spam my holys.

What are you doing while your tank is running ahead gathering the mobs (outside maybe Regen/Solace on the move)?

I personally would like to see each healer inflict & interact differently with their DoT. Something like:

WHM: Diacloud & AoE Aero III, the latter also being useable in single target situation
SCH: 2-4 additional DoTs, each affects how Broil IV behaves. Spreadable via Deployment Tactic. Deployment Tactic cooldown is reduced and given charges. Recitation cooldown is increased to reduce the potential of using Critlo spread too much. Maybe have the DoT interact with fae gauge too (lmao sorry BRDs )
AST: 1-2 additional DoTs, each can be manipulated by storing future damage, or extended when properly played. Play into that time mage element more.

Dunno about SGE but IMHO think they should just delete that & let SGE develop another means of dps instead of trying to fit the mold.

[Ririta]

Collectors who pick up eggs to fire a cannon

I'm sure this makes sense in context, but I'm still laughing