G-give it Back T---T; !! (Scholar Edition)

[sindriiisgaming]

Sorry to steal the thread concept, but I think this needs to be said:

hoonestly, no. way to many buttons just to aoe damage people when you have fester and painflair. i dont miss these skills, i wont miss these skills. scholar is a decent dps even now. has lots of paths to go down for its dps that even sage doesnt have. so, no thanks. it should stay in 5.0

[ty_taurus]

hoonestly, no. way to many buttons just to aoe damage people when you have fester and painflair. i dont miss these skills, i wont miss these skills. scholar is a decent dps even now. has lots of paths to go down for its dps that even sage doesnt have. so, no thanks. it should stay in 5.0

Don't put them on your hotbar then.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Don't put them on your hotbar then.

^This, literally.^

Same goes to whoever's so adamant to not see any more depths into their kits IF they somehow got added: then don't use it. Just glaroilficosis spam. Why suddenly it matter to you (general you)?

[Nizzi]

hoonestly, no. way to many buttons just to aoe damage people when you have fester and painflair. i dont miss these skills, i wont miss these skills. scholar is a decent dps even now. has lots of paths to go down for its dps that even sage doesnt have. so, no thanks. it should stay in 5.0

Why do people just make up complete lies about Scholar? Do the people that do this have collective memory issues or something? Scholar has never been able to use Fester or Painflare. Who cares if you don't miss those skills in the OP, you don't even know what skills Scholar has now! It's the one singular job in the game that has one (1) singular AoE ability for DPS, which is Art of War, not Fester or Painflare. Jobs should be designed for the people that main them, not around job tourists who maybe play them once in a blue moon in their roulettes.

[ForsakenRoe]

Why do people just make up complete lies about Scholar? Do the people that do this have collective memory issues or something? Scholar has never been able to use Fester or Painflare. Who cares if you don't miss those skills in the OP, you don't even know what skills Scholar has now! It's the one singular job in the game that has one (1) singular AoE ability for DPS, which is Art of War, not Fester or Painflare. Jobs should be designed for the people that main them, not around job tourists who maybe play them once in a blue moon in their roulettes.

He equipped a book and didn't bother to see which of the two book-jobs said book was for, perhaps. But agreed, SE seems to design around 'draw people who don't main, to try the thing', and this comes at the cost of the people who do main it. And it hasn't caused any noticeable improvement in % of playerbase sticking with the role, so it's been quite a failed experiment

[ty_taurus]

This is a summary of my more recent, humble take on a SGE rework:

• Barriers: Barriers applied E. Diagosis or E. Prognosis no longer grant Addersting upon breaking. All barriers applied by spells now restore 400 of your MP when they break.
• Dosis: Adjust potency. Costs no MP. Kardia effect is removed.
• Eukrasian Dosis: Duration is reduced to 15 seconds. Kardia effect is removed. Grants 1 Addersting.
• Dyskrasia > Paroxysm: Becomes ranged instead of point-blank. Potency is the same as Dosis with dropoff. Costs 800 MP; refunds the MP when hitting multiple enemies. Kardia effect is removed. (AoE spam and single target mobility spell)
• Eukrasian Paroxysm *New*: Applies a weaker DoT in an AoE. Does not stack with Eukrasian Dosis; only for AoE DoT application. No Kardia effect.
• Phlegma: Cooldown is reduced to 20 seconds. Kardia effect is removed.
• Toxikon: Potency stays the same as Dosis'. Becomes OGCD.
• Ekkokardia *New*: Same potency as Dosis (AoE). Costs 800 MP. Restores HP to your Kardia target with 400 potency.
• Eukrasian Ekkokardia: Same as Ekkokardia, but instead applies a 300 potency barrier to your Kardia target.
• Pneuma: Potency is increased. Cooldown is reduced to 55 seconds. Kardia effect is removed. Burst healing is removed. Applies Zoe to all nearby allies instead, increasing the HP restored to them from your healing spells. Enables 1 cast of Soma.
• Soma *New*: Replaces Ekkokardia on the hotbar for 1 cast. Point-blank AoE the size of Dancer dances that is the same potency as Dosis and grants healing and a barrier to all party members in range.

[ty_taurus]

I like the idea of strategic use of barrier direct heals, but if my ability to do that is limitless, I'm just going to be spamming barriers in savage fights, which is not the fantasy of Sage either.

I want the bulk of my healing to come from DPS attacks that generate healing, but attacks that I have to choose to use, not that automatically occur by me doing exactly what I'd be doing anyway.

[ForsakenRoe]

stupid rant that got very rambling, i'll just leave it in tags but it's not exactly coherent

But the issue is, all these 'small changes' that did not adversely affect the complexity of WHM like Overheal Weed, did actually affect it. Now, instead of a multi-hit raidwide like Styx, instead of requiring multiple GCD heal casts, can now be solved with just 'use the plant'. This removes the aspect, however small it previously was, of 'you might have MP issues later if you spam heals here'. I don't blame SE for making things damage neutral (and therefore positive in raidbuffs), because the playerbase of this game latches onto the stupidest things and parrots them as fact. Changing Misery from 900 to 1200 (instead of 1240) would have meant that using them willynilly and spending Misery without any thinking would be 40p loss, which is only a loss vs the Glares if A: you don't crit, B: you don't direct hit, C, there are zero raidbuffs up at the time, D: you don't gain a GCD by using a Lily heal while moving, E: you don't gain a GCD by using Misery for movement, F: you don't save a GCD of actually lossy healing (eg Medica2) by using a Lily in it's place. Lilies were not meant to be 'this is 100% damage neutral'. They were meant to be like Aetherflow. You took 1200 potential potency to prep and use the Misery, and got 900 back from it. Per Lily spent, that's 100p 'lost', the same as you 'lose' by using an Aetherflow heal instead of Energy Drain. It was even more lenient, because you could put this 'refund' into raidbuffs, to recoup even more damage, and potentially turn it into a DPS gain. But people didn't see that. Instead they saw nothing but damage loss, and rather than find a way to play around that loss, and find ways to minimize losses (as we do with SCH to get more EDs), they wanted the loss removed entirely. It's like when SCH had ED removed in 5.0, there was no worry about 'losing damage by Aetherflow healing', but the issue was, it felt like shit to have resources you didn't need, and had nothing to spend them on. To an extent, it's what I feel about Lilies now. There's nothing to spend the healing on, so it's just overheal. But I HAVE to spend them, to do the Misery-in-raidbuffs thing. It's counterintuitive

At the end of the day, I chalk it up to people thinking that 'X change would be better, turns out it's actually got its own problems'. If people had known back then, that 'WAR's gapcloser will be damage neutral, but now you only ever want to dump it's charges inside Trick and never any other time', they probably wouldn't have been so up for it. People wanted to be able to use the gapcloser to gapclose, and we can't really do that with the current form. And I see it as being the same with the Lilies. Healing with them is the 'nice side effect', the main reason to use them is to get Misery ready for raidbuffs, and I think that's backwards. I'd rather have them be slightly damage-lossy, so that 'when I use the Lily heals' is an actual choice, with consequences to my damage if I choose 'incorrectly' (even if that 'consequence' is a total of just 40p lost), because I cannot stand the idea of purposely wasting my resources to serve a purpose not related to those resources. I don't like throwing Druochole at myself for MP purposes on SGE either. In some regards, I'd even call it a 'failure of design' that the Lilies are now damage neutral. Because the 'refund' system they are designed to have, is no longer just a 'refund', but a 'you actually profited on this transaction' thanks to raidbuffs.

People are complaining about positionals and asking for them to be removed, I think 'don't remove them, just lower the bonus gained from them to 10p instead of 60p on some jobs', because without positionals, melee will feel dull as dishwater by comparison. But some people can't see that outcome until the change happens and it's too late, so they keep asking. Maybe the new job will have zero because of it, who knows

Toxikon being neutral would destroy the healing landscape. I don't think you know by how much, but let me try to explain. E.Diag/E.Prog would be damage neutral, you could recoup their damage via Toxikon, that's simple enough. But there's key differences between it, and Misery, that would be much much worse for the game:

• Toxikon requires only one GCD to set up for, in a high damage setting you could alternate Tox and shields. Misery takes 3 GCDs to set up
• Toxikon being damage neutral would cause more crit variance. Phlegma's already bad enough for it
• Toxikon can be banked up to 3 times. Misery can only have one charge banked. You'd want to go into every raidbuff window with 3 Toxikon's banked
• Misery's 'GCD builder', the Lilies, are once per 20s. Toxikon's is accessible at any time, without limit beyond it's MP cost.

You'd have SGEs able to use E.Diagnosis as, if they wanted, every second GCD. Between this, Kardia, and the tank's own kit, Pure healers would never need to do anything to keep the tanks alive. Why even use Aquaveil when the SGE can throw E.Diag on the tank without any thought? Also, that's not even considering that both E.Diag and Toxikon are instantcasts, meaning 100% mobility.

Put another way, if Lilies were not a thing, and you could just Solace/Rapture at will (spending Misery to recoup lost damage), how does that raise the skill ceiling? If ED didn't take away from your healing resources (instead being a 20s chargetime, 3 charges, action to dump in raidbuffs), how does that raise the skill ceiling?

Doesn't change the other part of my argument, though, that this is no worse than the current situation where we have infinite DPS neutral free healing via oGCDs. So at worst, this is, again, no worse than what we have currently.

As noted above, the OGCDs are free (ie don't lose damage), but not 'infinite'. They have gauge costs, CDs, limiters on how accessible they are and how often. If SGE loses only 50MP per GCD by alternating E.Diag and Toxikon (versus 2x Dosis), then that invalidates a hell of a lot more of the kit than what is currently invalidated by the OGCDs. ATM, we have to make use of Kerachole, Pankardia, Holos for mitigating raidwides while maximizing damage in Savage. With this, we can just put up E.Prog for free, we would not need to think about what order to use our OGCDs as we would not need to use them at all. We could ignore Haima, Taurochole, Ixochole, Dosis itself for the most part. Kardia's healing wouldn't even be a second thought, because A: the eHP of E.Diag is so much stronger and B: you'd still get the Kardia heal on the Toxikon cast. And that's saying nothing of how we'd be invalidating our cohealer and their kit. We're already overhealing on purpose with Lilies for the sake of Misery, with a change like this I'd expect it to be even more prevalent. Only way you'd catch me being okay with ideas like this is if 8mans were redesigned to only require one healer, with the healing required being the same as now. Because this would enable it to occur with alarming frequency

I like the idea of strategic use of barrier direct heals, but if my ability to do that is limitless, I'm just going to be spamming barriers in savage fights, which is not the fantasy of Sage either.

Pretty much how I feel about it. Having things be a 'tiny damage loss' means that using them willy-nilly is not encouraged by the game, but still well within range for raidbuffs to cover the 'loss', and even exceed it and make it a gain. I'm okay with 'using this resource cleverly causes it to be a gain thanks to raidbuffs', I'm just not so okay with 'it is literally impossible to choose wrong with this system', as Lilies now are. The only way to 'lose damage' now, compared to just using Glares, is to overcap, or to use a Lily at the end of a fight and not fire the Misery in time before the fight ends

[OgruMogru]

to sch is to suffer eternal

[Renalt]

So when's the wedding and am I invited?