How DPS complexity can make healers more forgiving

[Renathras]

For my part, I was trying to think of a way to have a healer with a 1-2-3 combo that would "feel" good. Because let's face it, visceral feel is a legitimate thing people derive enjoyment from. Primal Rend + Fell Cleave spam is a thing because it FEELS really good to a lot of people. Misery is a dopamine hit, too, as we're all aware.

I got to thinking, doing WAR PotD, that part of what I dislike about the idea of a healer 1-2-3 is the cast bars. Folks here have suggested things like one being a 2.5 sec cast, one instant, one 1.5; one having a DoT or something, etc. But the good feeling 1-2-3s in the game don't do that. Some have in the past (old Goring Blade), but the core 1-2-3 is just that. The "different cast time" thing we have a couple of examples of, RDM and SMN (the various Gemshine/Astral Flows). But none of those work as combos other than the Ifrit slam, which are both instants.

So it got me to thinking, maybe that's part of the trick; having them be instants.

So after that, "Which healer would it make sense to have instant cast attacks that could go thwack, smack, POW?" And that's when I remembered SGE's three Dosis animations and that lasers could work like MCH shots (which, of course, don't have cast times).

That's kind of what led to the outline above. No DoTs, 1-2-3, burst phase, and still can heal with weaving and Kardias. I'm sure not everyone would like it, but I wonder if others might find it fun. It's definitely less "Dosispam" than current SGE (despite having 3 of them, lol)

[Shurrikhan]

So it got me to thinking, maybe that's part of the trick; having them be instants.

This line of thinking seems odd. You noted that the only combos are instant, but you choose to assume that's because there's something inherently good about them being instant, rather than that such suits the needs, specifically, of engaging to slice someone apart with a sword or to charge and punch them with a fire-fist?

For my part, I'd be at least as happy having, say, an instant/short cast, a mid-length cast, and then a long/very-long cast that truly nukes, especially if the combo weren't interruptible so that I could have additional risk-reward in using the opener for mobility while still getting in my long-cast before the window closes. Instants are good when they fit the situation. Having your mobility chained together through a 1-2-3 (or a 3-4-5, if this is new and isn't intended to give the healer literally unlimited offensive mobility) into the likes of a Triplecast over the likes of 3 Lily charges... maybe feels better to... someone(?)... but would probably trend worse overall.

That said, I see zero benefit to spending 3 buttons on that. (Just as I see little to no benefit in spending 3 buttons on Solid Barrel, Royal Authority, or Souleater.) Just give me CD or a couple charges on the opener and then have it automatically swap to 2 and 3 with each subsequent action, with a limited amount of time to use it all, a la Apex Arrow -> Burst Arrow.

[ForsakenRoe]

For my part, I'd be at least as happy having, say, an instant/short cast, a mid-length cast, and then a long/very-long cast that truly nukes

Sounds like

[Shurrikhan]

Sounds like [Legion/Dragonflight Druid's [New Moon][Half Moon][Full Moon]]

Was thinking more 0s, 1.5s, 3s casts, but yeah, pretty much.

Though not on shared charges. Instead, like Apex Arrow -> Burst Arrow, once you pop the first you just have a fixed amount of time (say, 6-10s) in which to use the rest (not refreshed on next skill's use). That way there's a bit more play (if also a bit more rope to hang yourself by).
With the appended universal change that skill-unlocks snapshot (cannot cancel your current cast when the unlock buff runs out) if using the lower unlock duration.

[AmiableApkallu]

Dosis -> Dosis 2 -> Dosis 3
This is your Heated Split, Slug, Clean Shot filler rotation.

Dyskrasia -> Toxicon
This is a 1-2 AOE combo (like Tanks have; I realize MCH doesn’t, but roll with it).

I suppose my question is: What's the extra gimmick associated with these combos -- whether it be resource generation, buff/debuff management, positionals, etc.? Because while I'd take some modicum of mechanical complexity over what healers have now (and the variation in sfx and vfx), I'd still be left wanting for something to manage and be making decisions about, or even simply the illusion of such.

It's the extra gimmick that makes a combo what it is, and not just 1-1-1 split up into three buttons instead.

Why CAN'T we have one that fires off a combo like MCH

For example, MCH's combo builds battery gauge on the third step, and only the third step, and tank AoE combos provide something extra on the second step (Divine Might, Surging Tempest, Blood Gauge, cartridge).

[Shurrikhan]

For example, MCH's combo builds battery gauge on the third step, and only the third step, and tank AoE combos provide something extra on the second step (Divine Might, Surging Tempest, Blood Gauge, cartridge).

Aye.

And... all of which can still be done with a single button each, as it's virtually always better even to waste the additional resource even on the off-chance it overcaps... than to repeat at lower potency. See the Gnashing Fang or Blade of ---- combos.

Unless there's a specific reason to use Button 1 without always following it with Button 2 and Button 3 (without which you have effectively a single action spread across 3 buttons), why take up 3 buttons on it, especially on a role that --especially if our relative healing output and the predictability of healing needs were ever increased-- we'd want to have especially responsive reach to its oGCDs, glut thereof though they be.

[ty_taurus]

Aye.

And... all of which can still be done with a single button each, as it's virtually always better even to waste the additional resource even on the off-chance it overcaps... than to repeat at lower potency. See the Gnashing Fang or Blade of ---- combos.

Unless there's a specific reason to use Button 1 without always following it with Button 2 and Button 3 (without which you have effectively a single action spread across 3 buttons), why take up 3 buttons on it, especially on a role that --especially if our relative healing output and the predictability of healing needs were ever increased-- we'd want to have especially responsive reach to its oGCDs, glut thereof though they be.

To bounce off your point...

What advantage, if any, is there to having Heated Split Shot, Heated Slug Shot, and Heated Clean Shot as separate actions? Imagine the following:

Heated Split Shot
- 290 potency
- Increases the Heat Gauge by 5
- Increases the Battery Gauge by 5

If we compare this 1:1 to Machinist's existing combo, you generate Battery Gauge more frequently, but the action has slightly less potency than the 293.333333 average potency across the current 1-2-3. Assuming those numbers balance out, is there any disadvantage to doing this instead? What if you were promised that in place of the removed Heated Slug Shot and Heated Clean Shot, you would get two new actions added to Machinist's rotation in some capacity? Do you think anything could outweigh the loss of the combo? Or can you only imagine a net negative from such a move?

[Shurrikhan]

To bounce off your point...

What advantage, if any, is there to having Heated Split Shot, Heated Slug Shot, and Heated Clean Shot as separate actions?

As separate actions (even if all on one button)? Some, because it can cause very mild/infrequent sync concerns, especially with the Battery Gauge, if there is downtime or AoE (since it's more Heat-efficient but less Battery-efficient), beyond what you'd see from each GCD having equal payout.

As separate buttons? None, except to reward those who really like hitting separate buttons for the exact same decision.

Do you think anything could outweigh the loss of the combo? Or can you only imagine a net negative from such a move?

Compared to just a consolidated combo, it seems wholly a net negative to also merge those 3 actions' effects into a single action, as having a little bit of spike and cycle does tend to make things a tiny bit more engaging, at least if they can an impact on sync/overcap concerns, which MCH's technically (barely) does. But not a huge loss, no.

[Renathras]

This line of thinking seems odd. You noted that the only combos are instant, but you choose to assume that's because there's something inherently good about them being instant,

No, I'm speaking from direct experience. What was fun to me about running POTD on WAR vs WHM wasn't "more DPS buttons", it was that the buttons felt accessible. I have Holy (useful for the Stun, but long cast time; useful on Mimics until floor...40 or so) and Assize (on a 40 sec CD), but WAR felt more dynamic because I pressed buttons and, BAM!, something happened. There was no cast time, so the feedback was more instantaneous and visceral. And that made it more fun.

Also:

I don't get this constant insistence on pushing back against literally any idea I propose. There does come a point where a reasonable person can reasonably conclude you just aren't giving ideas a chance because of their origin, not the merits of the idea.

4 Healers Model aside, there's literally no reason for us NOT to have a healer that has instant cast damage filler spells as part of a slightly more involved rotation where you're trading instant cast mobility for cast time simplicity.

Besides: ?Por que no los dos?

Have one healer that does the one (instant/short/mid) and one that does the other (instant/instant/instant). WHY IS THIS NOT OKAY?

WHY do all the healer Jobs need to have the exact same rotation/mechanics?

EDIT:

The thing is, a 1-2-3 combo is something that's been talked about quite a lot as a specific example of what many DPS advocates are not asking for.

Right.

I'm NOT a DPS advocate.

But I think it's fair to say that soloing Deep Dungeons like PotD really exposes Job's individual merits, both strengths and weaknesses and things that can make them fun or not. For example, AST is both weak and boring. WHM is less weak but still fairly boring. It's more noticeable when you don't have other people around you're trying to fix mistakes of and don't have a healing plan and often don't even need your DoT applied since many enemies will die before it reaches the break even point vs Stone 3.

And, again, WE HAVE FOUR HEALERS.

You guys implicitly acknowledge and agree with me that they shouldn't have the exact same damage rotation, I THINK...think we agree on that. When I say we shouldn't go from one "all the same" 1 button spam to another "all the same" 10 button rotation, I think you guys agree on that.

...yet most all of your proposals are variations on that. Some DoTs, some gauge mechanic, and a few more DPS actions on CDs and shared charges that fit neatly into the 2 min meta. It's replacing one same for another same.

.

What I'd like answered is this:

Why CAN'T we have both?

Why CAN'T we have one that fires off a combo like MCH while having another that has a cast combination system like RDM another that has a "cast combo" with different times like Roe's WoW Druid? Why is that NOT acceptable?

Why MUST it all be filler spell + DoT + CD action with 2 charges + gauge builder action + gauge spender action?

I'm not even asking "one left alone" this time; I'm saying if we change them all to have DPS rotations, why CAN'T one be like MCH? Why is that not allowable?

[Shurrikhan]

No, I'm speaking from direct experience. What was fun to me about running POTD on WAR vs WHM wasn't "more DPS buttons", it was that the buttons felt accessible. I have Holy (useful for the Stun, but long cast time; useful on Mimics until floor...40 or so) and Assize (on a 40 sec CD), but WAR felt more dynamic because I pressed buttons and, BAM!, something happened. There was no cast time, so the feedback was more instantaneous and visceral. And that made it more fun.

So, just entirely subjective cast-times-feel-bad?

I mean, fair enough, but... that doesn't seem a warrant worth theorizing what should be done for healer combos off of. Your previous post treated this like some inherent critical factor appreciable by most players; it seems instead just to be your particular aversion to delayed effect / reward for smart pre-casting. That may be held by others, but we've yet to see whether that's a significant portion, and it's certainly nothing integral or unique to combos.

4 Healers Model aside, there's literally no reason for us NOT to have a healer that has instant cast damage filler spells as part of a slightly more involved rotation where you're trading instant cast mobility for cast time simplicity.

So long as the consequent skill ceilings are both decently high (despite a less involved rotation on the other and no movement optimizations on the other) and decently equal across a rough average of difficult fights, sure. That's not as it may sound, but such should be possible.

WHY do all the healer Jobs need to have the exact same rotation/mechanics?

Find me anyone who asked for this strawman?