Evidence that Macros Do NOT Cause GCD Delay or Lost Casts

[LilimoLimomo]

Your macro doesn't queue, it just smashes the button over and over until it goes off (assuming the macro doesn't end before), this is different to ACTUAL action queuing where it stores the action to use, then executes it when it is available.

You know, I'm not actually sure what's happening from an implementation standpoint on the back-end for normal buttons. They might actually queue, or they might repeatedly try the same way macros do. Have the devs ever explained how that works? Regardless of what's happening in implementation though, using the term queuing seems close enough and has the benefit of making explanations less wordy and easier to follow. Though if you can think of any reasons why there's a meaningful difference from a user experience standpoint, I'd be curious to hear!

As for your macro example, assuming you don't have the other actions available on your bars, why would you want to restrict yourself in that way? What if you don't want to Swiftcast and Sharpcast in the same GCD window?

Fair question! I'm a controller-user with arthritis that makes it difficult and painful to press certain buttons or combinations of buttons. This was never an issue in ARR when jobs like BLM had fewer actions (and 1/4 of them weren't even worth putting on you crosshotbar), but as the game has progressed the number of actions has increased, and now they're nearly all viable parts of BLM's kit. There are now more useful actions for BLM than can be fit on a single crosshotbar, and with my arthritis it's not really viable to to even use that whole crosshotbar. But there are some buttons I can comfortably use regularly, and other buttons I can comfortably use sparingly. Being able to map multiple actions onto a single button really helps me in this regard.

And beyond that, it's just convenient in many cases. I don't need two buttons for Ley Lines and Between the Lines. I don't need two buttons for Blizzard III and Despair. If I press my Flare macro during oGCD then it casts Manafont. These are macros that not everyone needs, but to some people, depending on their needs and preferences, they will make the game more manageable.

For the specific macro you're talking about, it's worth noting that this is a macro that is tuned to my specific needs; because of how tied it is to the specific way I play, I would not broadly recommend this as a macro that others should use. But it's an example of a more complex macro that I do actually use.

The Swiftcast part of the macro is something I recently added that I would consider a work-in-progress, and I may modify in the future; at present, I'm in the testing phase to see whether I like it, whether it causes problems, and whether my brain can successfully make the connection between Swiftcast and that button. I will openly say that Swiftcast being part of this macro is likely not ideal, but my crosshotbars are full of buttons I can press without discomfort and ramifications. So I'm experimenting with ways to add this button into other macros to cast during oGCD times. Also, as luck would have it, with the rhythm at which I press buttons, Sharpcast never gets cast after Swiftcast, presumably because simply press other buttons before it can. Another reason why I believe in tailoring macros to the needs of the person; macros are generally not a one-size-fits-all thing!

Also, why have you done AE in that way? You cannot guarantee it goes off if you don't properly time it and it will be much more responsive if you had it as a separate button.

100% true! This works for my needs at present because AE has always been the BLM skill I am worst at. I am bad at remembering it exists, and bad at executing it when I need to. One of my goals is to get better at AE, so I have actually put a single cast of AE at the very beginning of many of my BLM macros, so that when I remember it exists (which will surely be in a mild panic), almost any button I press will cast it. At present, I don't have to worry about its responsiveness because if I am pressing the AE button I have already at least briefly stopped my rotation. With practice, I'm getting better at it, faster at it! And if and when I reach the point where I'm doing it so fast that queuing functionality would benefit me, at that time I'll probably try to redesign my macros and crosshotbar layout.

Also, you can have /micon as the last line and it will still show the right icon on your macro and it won't delay the rest of your macro by however long it takes to run 1line, making it slightly more responsive. I do not believe you can do that with the /macroerror off however.

I've never seen anyone talk about this before, but this is indeed something I've been wanting to test: whether those "meta" lines actually result in a delay. At least for my needs, it's generally not an issue because I take advantage of the queuing properties of my macros and thus I'm rarely, if ever, pressing a button at the exact same moment I expect the spell to start casting, so if /micon does result in a delay, then for my needs it is probably better to have it in the front, as that's a part of the macro I expect to activate very little. Though I suppose I also don't expect the end to activate very often either. Now I'm hungry to test this! ^^

[Cabalabob]

Here’s the thing. In a perfect world where everyone is perfect and doesn’t need help focusing and can press their buttons properly, the macro will always come out worse than doing it yourself. You will NEVER see a top end raider using a macro like that, because even that imperceptible 0.2 seconds off their GCD can be the difference between them being #1 and #2 on fflogs.

If you aren’t the best and you need that crutch to even perform then it’s great that you have that option. But it doesn’t change the fact that the macro is WORSE than learning to do it yourself. And by using a macro like that you CAN’T learn to do it yourself… because you’re not practicing it. To someone like me I can FEEL the difference between doing it manually and using a macro, the delay is there and it feels awful.

Now, as for your testing on the SSS dummy, you’re using a lot of spell speed which will throw off your results it’s very easy to fit 26 GCDs into a minute window with a 2.36 GCD. Grab a bone staff from the starting cities and do it naked so you’re only getting the base 2.5 GCD maybe with your timing thrown off you’ll even feel the macro jank too.

[ForteNightshade]

Your second video showing you using a macro for Blizzard isn't the evidence you thought it was. Just watching the video, I noticed you clipping your GCD several times. It's not a huge impact per se but it's absolutely noticeable if you're looking for it. That will have cost you a cast or two at the very least. Nevertheless, as others have said, it's more when you combined oGCDs with GCDs that macros become a much higher detriment. Put Dragoon's baseline rotation in a macro and you'll see how Life Surge or your Jumps either get misaligned or skipped entirely.

[LilimoLimomo]

I added an edit to the end of my original post to clarify a common misconception; posting it here for everyone's convenience:

Edit:
I've seen numerous replies talking about how the /wait command results in drift because of how it only operates in multiples of whole seconds. This is correct! If you want to queue up a whole 1-2-3 combo with a single button press, the result will be lost DPS compared to just pressing the buttons at the right time. This is why generally speaking, I would not recommend trying to use macros (and specifically /wait) for that purpose. However, that kind of shoddy macro isn't the main thrust of this post. Macros have so much more potential beyond the poorly-constructed macros you may be used to seeing; there are many ways to make good, helpful macros that do not result in drift. You can make macros that cast a skill when GCD is available, but cast an ability if GCD isn't available. You can make macros so that when you cast Fire III, your most comfortable buttons are populated by Fire spells instead of Ice spells, and vice versa. You can make macros so that alternating presses between only three buttons will perform every step of Dragoon's 1-2-3-4-5-6 combo, without any drift (add one more button and all of the AoE combos can fit in there, too, again, without drift). You can make macros that automate a single weave after a specific GCD skill. Macros can do many useful things that make gameplay more convenient for people who don't need it, and more accessible for people who do.

And that's why I did this research, did these tests, and made this post: because I would like to correct the misconception that macros innately lead to drift. However, what I didn't realize when I initially made this post was that many people seem to have only ever seen bad macros, the kind that lead to drift not because they are macros, but because they are trying to do things macros can't do well. To make an analogy, if you judge the capability of a boat based on whether you can fly it to the moon, you will probably feel like boats suck. But if you identify the strengths of boats and use them for things like water travel, you'll see that boats can be pretty useful The same is true for macros. So if you've only seen bad macros before, I hope that this post can let you know that there are plenty of other ways to use macros. I don't want to bloat this post any further, but if you ask me I'll be happy to give you some demonstrations of what those can look like.

[Mikey_R]

You know, I'm not actually sure what's happening from an implementation standpoint on the back-end for normal buttons. They might actually queue, or they might repeatedly try the same way macros do. Have the devs ever explained how that works? Regardless of what's happening in implementation though, using the term queuing seems close enough and has the benefit of making explanations less wordy and easier to follow. Though if you can think of any reasons why there's a meaningful difference from a user experience standpoint, I'd be curious to hear!

Queuing has it's own definition, in that you can press an action before you can use it and it still goes off when it is first available. Macros do not interact with this at all and the devs have said as such in the past when people have asked about this (this is back in 2.0 days). They have specifically said they do not want people to use macros to essentially automate combat and so they do not behave the same as the actual actions.

Now, whilst I do not know exactly how it works, I can speculate how the queuing system works on the back end in a very simple example. GCD on cooldown, at some point the game goes, queue open, stores a single input (the last one pressed), queue closes, GCD is off cooldown, activate action. All a controlled environment as opposed to smashing the button (digitally speaking) which is just unnecessary processor usage. Macros are not counted as something that interacts with that system and so macros do not queue.

Fair question! I'm a controller-user with arthritis that makes it difficult and painful to press certain buttons or combinations of buttons.

You see, this changes things. It is one thing to claim macros aren't bad, when everyone knows that they are and it is another to say, I have this condition, however, I have found a way to use macros to allow me to play/enjoy the game more. The difference here is that, you are trying to say, see macros aren't bad, I don't know what you are talking about, whereas, what you actually meant was, look, I know macros are bad, however, I have found a way to make them slightly less bad for people that need them for one reason or another.

So really, it is how you came across, 'look, I know you all think you know what is going on, however, I'm going to prove you all wrong with faulty testing and bad takes'. That is how you came across. If you had started it off with, look, I have a condition and am trying to make macros work slightly better for me, here is what I have found, I guarantee it would have been better received.

I've never seen anyone talk about this before, but this is indeed something I've been wanting to test: whether those "meta" lines actually result in a delay.

Macros work by executing every line in sequence irregardless of what it is. I just tested and it definitely makes a difference, even if in reality it is imperceivably.

(Test was done with 2 macros, macro 1 line 1 /echo 1, line 2 /echo 2. This just pastes 1 and 2 in chat that only you can see. Second macro was the same, except every line had a /micon Triplecast in every line except line 1 and 15. Then, just used them. You should be able to see the difference in time it takes. Note that you cannot leave any lines blank otherwise the macro will not work and break. I originally tried to test with blank lines and the 2 never came out).

[LilimoLimomo]

Your second video showing you using a macro for Blizzard isn't the evidence you thought it was. Just watching the video, I noticed you clipping your GCD several times. It's not a huge impact per se but it's absolutely noticeable if you're looking for it.

Thanks for pointing this out! This gives me an idea of how to make a macro that will at least make it clear to me if I clip my GCD; I'll repeat my performance with that, and hopefully I'll have a better video to upload soon!

Nevertheless, as others have said, it's more when you combined oGCDs with GCDs that macros become a much higher detriment. Put Dragoon's baseline rotation in a macro and you'll see how Life Surge or your Jumps either get misaligned or skipped entirely.

There are a variety of different ways I can imagine this working, so can you be more specific regarding what you're talking about? With a single weave, there are macros to make that work, but if you're talking about trying to macro double-weaves then that would be somewhere between tricky and impossible depending on the way it was implemented.

[Iscah]

the queuing benefit that macros have to offer.

What "queuing benefit"? Technicalities of whether it can be called queuing or not aside, you've dedicated paragraphs to the fact that the queuing window is smaller on a macro than just by casting the spell directly. That's not a benefit.

[Cabalabob]

To make an analogy, if you judge the capability of a boat based on whether you can fly it to the moon, you will probably feel like boats suck. But if you identify the strengths of boats and use them for things like water travel, you'll see that boats can be pretty useful The same is true for macros. So if you've only seen bad macros before, I hope that this post can let you know that there are plenty of other ways to use macros. I don't want to bloat this post any further, but if you ask me I'll be happy to give you some demonstrations of what those can look like.

A more apt analogy is that it was already tested and the case was closed 10 years ago that manual cars can reach up to 100mph when driven properly while automatic cars can only go up to 80mph and also if you try to do any fancy tricks in them they’ll explode.

Now you’ve come going “actually, I just test drove both a manual and an automatic car for 10 mins each and I only got both up to 80mph, I think all these professional race car drivers that tested this are wrong and one is just as fast as the other”.

And people have come to tell you, no… it’s not… and also if you try to do any tricks in it, it’ll explode…

Can the automatic car be helpful for people who can’t focus on a gear stick and drive? Yes, no one has ever argued against that. But an automatic car will NEVER reach the same top speed as the manual car and if you use an automatic car you’ll never get better at using a manual car because you’re not getting any practice with it.

[vetch]

What "queuing benefit"? Technicalities of whether it can be called queuing or not aside, you've dedicated paragraphs to the fact that the queuing window is smaller on a macro than just by casting the spell directly. That's not a benefit.

Right. The benefit of macros is that they can do things that the game's native UI is garbage at, like combining buttons that are mutually exclusive, or helping disabled people pare down the 30+ buttons you're expected to use at level 90, or enabling mouseover healing in an MMORPG that still lacks a setting for it in the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Twenty-Three.

The small loss of GCD uptime that accrues when using a decently-constructed macro to circumvent these glaring design flaws is an acceptable tradeoff, and OP should probably be focusing on that instead of trying to argue that a system which was explicitly kneecapped to make it worse than bare buttons is just as efficient as bare buttons. That's not what macros are for. They're for overriding CBU3's bad decisions.

[TheRealMadruck]

snip

You are right. Macros do work. I can attest to it going back 10 years since beta! I still use macros on my combat jobs to this day from dungeons to 24 mans being on the top of aggro everytime! Back in 2016, I made this post discussing this very thing even including a no longer available video I posted with these facts from my own test: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...er-Rotation%21. My methods have been refined since then to make the best combat macros I can make today from those I created in 2016.

Yet let me be frank with you Lilimo...no matter how much evidence you produce showing something I have known for 10 years regarding macros, you will always have a set of players on here saying you are wrong. They will act on cynicism instead of skepticism on any claim because they feel there is only one way to do things. These players are from a specific group who use a certain type of illegal third party addon in which I have known/spoken to directly from various FCs I have been in who make these specific points about macros.

Combat macros ensures you do not miss using OCD, macros eliminates human and latency errors 99% of the time for me. It takes practice like everything else in FF14 to perfect how to use the macros a player has created. But once you have built the muscle memory, I perform just as well in normal combat as any other player who does the "norm" with more consistant dps.

Bottomline, even if it is true that using combat macros "is a dps loss", the amount of dps loss you experience in 95% of FF14 content is minuscule! O no!!! I did only 990 damage per sec instead of 1k in my dungeon roulette... all macros bad. These players disregard their own latency vs anothers, they placate their skill is on par with others, and act like all have the ability or want to be the same as them. Use macros, dont use macros...at the end of the day no player should be able to dictate others on how to play a amazing game like FF14. Yet that is exactly what others are doing relegating this nuanced topic on combat macros as being a black/white topic when it factually isn't.

Thank you for your test Lilimo by confirming something I already knew back in 2016 in which the mass of players of FF14 have been misinformed about!