Evidence that Macros Do NOT Cause GCD Delay or Lost Casts

[Sensui]

I can barely use a pot after a weapon skill (no not in a macro. Just from the hotbar) without having to time it "just so" without the risk of the pot not going off and me just mashing the button angrily as the rest of the world around me keeps hitting the boss and my opener getting fubard.. my experience has never been great with macros. Timing issues aside, they just get hung up and don't work sometimes.

[Collin_Sky]

So I just watched your video, because honestly at this point I figured I'd humor you, and something felt really off, I could notice a delay after every single GCD when using macros. It's really, really noticeable when watching it, I physically felt something was wrong (I have autism so this genuinely triggers that sort of reaction in me when I can tell something is off). I even had to mute the video and watch it without sound to make sure I wasn't imagining it due to the UI sounds.
I even logged into the game and tested my GCD to make sure I wasn't wrong and ground myself to something I can control.

My dude, you are definitely clipping on every single GCD, if you say you're not, I'm convinced you don't actually know what clipping is, or just haven't learned to feel small instances of clipping (similar to how some people can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps). But you are 100% clipping in your video. The GCD isn't smooth when it rolls over onto the next.
The video I watched, since you called someone else out for using the wrong video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-LgAGXETgA

[Rin_Sato]

The test is a demonstration of the data. It answers the question "do macros innately cause action loss".

You do not need a video to prove it.
Please refer to the following test method:

As the following is somewhat related to why macros aren't so great, please do the following for more insight.
Test a macro with the first 14 lines being '/macroerror off' followed by 1 line with '/echo test 1 <se.6>'.
Compare this to a macro with just '/echo test 2 <se.4>'.
Now mash each alternatingly and compare how many of each you get in chat (you will get no instances of test 1 unless you slow down to less than 2 presses a second or so).

[Collin_Sky]

I must say, it does get frustrating to see misinformation threads like this get bumped up.

Op, or anyone else for that matter, do you have actual hard evidence for the claim that your gcd macros aren't costing you uses? Videos, logs, etc.? Because part of proposing a new theory is proving that theory via testing. Op, all you do is ask people to "try it and see." You provide data, but have no demonstration to back up said data.

Well, I'm now asking you to prove yourself. Share the macros you use, go into a simple fight, execute, and post the video here. I will HAPPILY comb through the video and tell you every instance in which you clipped, as well as let you know how many GCDs you lost. Please tell me if your video isn't 60 fps on your upload location, or let me know when you're done so I can provide a place for you to upload the raw footage.

Uploading to the magic number site will be a big plus. I'd be able to give you exact millisecond figures to go off of.

And, if you don't and you are somehow, magically, as gcd efficient as just hitting a normal button, then you can put that in the op AND I'll find a way to reward you for humoring me.

And no, the 30 second clip in the op doesn't count, even though I can see very clear and obvious clipping in it.

Edit: I have another caviot: if anyone does make a video, it is a REQUIREMENT to prove that you have no add-ons running. There are add-ons that impact how macros function (such as making 0.5 second wait timers work, which op mentioned very early on in the thread, hmmmmm). I feel it'd be disingenuous to say that macros can work when it's really an add-on making them work.

There's several ways to prove that there are none active, so go through a few of them before whichever fight you do.

I like how OP ignores this entire post except for the 2 parts which he has a very easily dismissive point to make despite asking players to try and disprove him and claiming to be open to it if people can.

[AmiableApkallu]

I feel like this entire thread could be summarized as:

Q: Should I use a macro for <thing>?

A: It depends.

The clickbait-ish title does no favors on The Internet, but seriously.

If you're a one-limbed feline suffering from arthritis, then maybe a few well-constructed macros will help you perform better.

If you're a spry, four-limbed human in perfect health, then maybe you have no need for macros.

[PommesFrites]

Apologies for pestering you more, @Lilimo, but after some experimentation I've managed to nearly consolidate everything for Lv 100 BLM to the one set of 16 XHB slots and it feels pretty good! It is a tight squeeze but the core Fire III opener is all done and functional. I'm struggling to figure out what to do with role actions (aside from Swiftcast) and potions, though. In the worst case scenario, I don't suppose I would need to map Sleep or Lucid Dreaming, but I would definitely like access to the rest of them at all times. How do you handle these in your setup? I am trying to avoid manually switching XHB pages back and forth as much as possible, but it seems like this may be a case of a necessary evil. If you want to share notes, I don't mind going over what I've got figured out so far, too.

[LilimoLimomo]

My dude, you are definitely clipping on every single GCD, if you say you're not, I'm convinced you don't actually know what clipping is, or just haven't learned to feel small instances of clipping (similar to how some people can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps). But you are 100% clipping in your video. The GCD isn't smooth when it rolls over onto the next.
The video I watched, since you called someone else out for using the wrong video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-LgAGXETgA

Can you clarify whether you are you literally talking about every cast in the video, or a subset of casts? I want to make sure I understand what you're saying so I can take a proper look.

[LilimoLimomo]

You do not need a video to prove it.
Please refer to the following test method:
As the following is somewhat related to why macros aren't so great, please do the following for more insight.
Test a macro with the first 14 lines being '/macroerror off' followed by 1 line with '/echo test 1 <se.6>'.
Compare this to a macro with just '/echo test 2 <se.4>'.
Now mash each alternatingly and compare how many of each you get in chat (you will get no instances of test 1 unless you slow down to less than 2 presses a second or so).

I'm genuinely unsure what you think you're demonstrating here. By mashing two macros alternately, each macro has the potential to interrupt both itself and the other macro; that's part of why in my first post I clearly recommend that macros not be mashed. Don't do that and you'll be fine.

As an aside, I've heard from others that /echo has some interesting timing behavior that differs from other macro commands such as /ac, though I haven't looked into it myself since I don't use /echo macros. I can't tell if that's part of what you're seeing since the mashing is obviously going to get in the way.

[LilimoLimomo]

I am very appreciative of this thread @Lilimo! Especially considering Japanese players have no aversion to macros, I was surprised to learn how anti-macro NA appears to be, and how little knowledge about them exists in the English-speaking corners of the web aside from "bad, do not use". I also suffer severe hand health issues from decades of being a software developer and general computer junkie, so I am always on the lookout for ways to make the play experience more comfortable for me. I had a suspicion macros might be able to help, and I'm glad to see someone else of like mind take the charge!

Thanks for the positive feedback; I genuinely hope that some of the knowledge in this thread can help you play more comfortably and effectively! ^^

I wanted to ask specifically what BLM macros you make frequent use of to save hotbar space?

Sure, I'd be glad to share some of them! First, I'll give an overview of my high-level setup that will probably work for a lot of people.

The way I have my BLM crosshotbars setup, I've got 4 different "loadout" crosshotbars in storage, each for a different purpose:

1. Fire Phase Single Target
2. Ice Phase Single Target
3. Fire Phase Multi Target
4. Ice Phase Multi Target

When I press certain macros, those macros will copy a specific "loadout" crosshotbar to my main crosshotbar. So when I press Blizzard 3 it changes to the Single-Target Ice Crosshotbar, etc. I have a different Transpose macro for each of these 4 bars, so that when I press Transpose it keeps being either Single or Multi target, but swaps to the bar of the other Element. And similarly, I have 4 macros (one for each bar) that don't do anything except swap between Single and Multi target modes.

All of that helps me reduce button bloat by making sure crosshotbar space isn't being wasted by spells I don't need. For example, if I'm doing a single-target boss fight, I won't need to press spells like Freeze or Fire 2. And when I'm in my Ice Phase, I don't need access to spells like Fire, Fire IV, Flare Star, etc. By getting rid of spells we don't need when we don't need them, we can more easily fit spells/abilities we do need into places that are comfortable and easy to access.

So for example, one of the Transposes looks like this:

/ac "Transpose"
/crosshotbar copy BLM 4 BLM 1
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/macroicon "Transpose"

Most of the time I don't need much of any queue padding for abilities, but all the /ac lines are there just because if you slip it'll make things more comfy. And since we're not intentionally taking advantage of any queuing, I put the /macroicon line at the end which will result in less delay at the beginning of the macro. That said, I put the crosshotbar swap on the second line because it's important that that part of the macro not end up interrupted, and on line 2 that won't happen because I don't mash my macros.

So that's the high-level part that I think the most people will probably benefit from. As for my specific macros, they're a bit in flux right now, as I'm still in the process of iteratively adjusting them to the Dawntrail BLM changes; that's something I've been doing over time to really get a feel for what's comfy, what's not quite there, if there are any situations that cause issues, etc.

I have two other macros that might be worth sharing, but they're both pretty simple. That said, they demonstrate techniques that can be used in a lot of different circumstances!

This one combines Fire IV and Flare Star into a single button, as during standard play there will never be a situation where you could cast either Flare Star or Fire IV. By alternating them on each line, we take advantage of queuing behavior while minimizing the possible frame delay to 1 at most and 0.5 on average.

/macroicon "Flare IV"
/macroerror off
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"
/ac "Flare Star"
/ac "Fire IV"

I have a similar macro that combines Flare and Flare Star.

This is probably also a good time to talk about being strategic with where you place /macroicon lines. I tend to like placing this line at the beginning of a macro because it's more common to continue chaining casts than to start a new chain after not casting. This means that when starting from a scratch, there will always be a 2 frame delay before these spells start to cast, however when chaining those 2 frames will just be additional queuing time that won't result in any delay because I've pressed my button in advance.

This next one is really simple, combining Manafont and Fire 3 into a single button. When I want to combine buttons, I generally try to have a concept that they both fall under, and this is a "Begin Fire Phase" button. So if you queue this for a GCD, you'll get Fire 3, but if your GCD isn't available you'll get Manafont. I have a non-cross hotbar positioned below my actual crosshotbar, and I use it to display icons for spells/abilities that I want to know information about. That way even though the icon for this macro shows information on Fire III, I can tell what the cooldown status of Manafont is by looking slightly below it.

/macroicon "Fire III"
/macroerror off
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Fire III"
/ac "Manafont"

I think that's most of what's worth sharing from my BLM, though if you really want to see all the rest, let me know and I can throw together a quick video for you; that'll be way easier than typing them all out since they're on my PS5! ^^

Anyway, hope this ended up being interesting, and thanks again for the positive feedback!

[LilimoLimomo]

The clickbait-ish title does no favors on The Internet, but seriously.

The title was never intended to be clickbait, but hindsight is 20/20. If I had it to do again, I would use a different title. Unfortunately, titles are the one part of posts that can't be edited.

When I made my initial post, it was in response to the Balance Discord's purported evidence of how macros cause lost casts, which demonstrated with a video that showed that macros innately resulted in a loss of almost 5% of your APM. That was a significant amount, and I understood why people cared about it. I did the tests and was able to debunk that specific video, demonstrating that it was possible to use macros without incurring that loss. It seemed like a very straightforward debunk, and I naively thought players would simply be relieved to not have to worry about such a significant loss to their APM.

What I had not anticipated was that some players were worried about losing 0.007% of their APM and considered this to be meaningfully different than 0%. Nor had I anticipated that some players would believe it was inevitable that every player would fail to press a button within a 10-frame window. I had vastly underestimated the extent to which a subset of players desired perfection with no chance of failure, while at the same time turning a blind eye to the fact that perfection was already out of reach of many players. Of course, now I know.

So if I had it to do again, I would frame it all differently. Even though as best I can tell the evidence I provided demonstrates that there is no loss, I wouldn't use absolute terms like that "not"; that's the big change I'd make. Maybe I'd use the word "innately". I'd try to make a better title that succinctly described the idea that macros don't innately cause a meaningful loss in APM, while trying to avoid subjective words like "meaningful"; that way players who find 0.007% APM to be meaningful don't feel like I'm dismissing them.

That said, I wouldn't summarize the post as "to some it's this, and to others it's this". The real value of my post is in explaining the mechanics of how macros function, as well as their pros and cons. It's not meant to be prescriptive, it's meant to be informative. In that respect, even though I would change the title, I'm satisfied with the post's contents.

But yeah, hindsight is 20/20. ^^