Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[Onisake]

To be honest I've never been a fan of the "I'll take all the hits because all the other classes can't" style of tank in the first place.
How it should work is, instead of tanks focusing on skills that direct all damage to them so the other players have nothing to worry about, they should mostly have skills that mitigate the damage the other players will take when they do get attacked. It's fine if the tank class has some skills that force the enemy to attack them but it shouldn't be based around it.

In other words enmity should essentially be abolished. That was part of the challenge of most of the other FF games: Sometimes party members you don't want to get attacked would get attacked.

WHM is the new tank! AWWW YEAH!!!?!?!1one!

in multiplayer games tanks can serve a number of functions. but the primary function of the tank has always been to control the field of battle.

To use League of Legends as an example: tanks in this game primarily function as initiators. they run in first. take the brunt of the damage, often dieing in the process, and allows their damage dealing classes to do what they do best: deal damage. Tanks also have a lot of crowd-control abilities to allow them to disrupt enemy DDs and prevent their own DDs from dieing too quickly. It's purely about being able to control the field of battle through disrupts.

but that is a purely PvP environment.

in a PvE environment the game changes slightly.

the holy trinity of gaming is tank/DD/support. there's a reason for this. It's fun. It allows people to do what they like to do. if you remove one of those (tank) then the other two must pick up the slack. it's no longer DD, it's DD/tank because you have to worry about taking damage.

EVERY thing you've said you want tanks to do fall under support. buffing, healing, debuffing, are all support roles. Tanks are there to control the field of battle. DD are there to kill stuff. and support are there to enable DD and tanks to do their jobs better.


------------------------------

back on topic:

I personally would not mind doing away with +enmity. I can see it's merit, but on PLD currently there is a big modifier to hate generation based on MND. making +enmity less important on PLD in comparing it to WAR. WAR has no modifiers to hate generation, and relies more on direct damage than PLD. so +enmity is more important to this class.

I realize that this stat was added to allow tanks to scale up their enmity production in order to keep up with damage dealer gear progress, however, the current implementation is problematic for a few reasons:

1) Tanks are forced to choose between survival, or "tankyness", and the ability to hold hate. I don't think this is a choice most players particularly like to make. Currently all content favours focusing on holding hate because rewards are based on speed (AV, CC), defense isn't needed (Ifrit, Moogle), or because slow and steady makes things harder, not easier (Garuda).

the biggest factor of tankyness right now is dLVL. that being said when fighting things that matter, dLVL is so high VIT and DEF do nothing for you. all you need is lots and lots of HP.

really the damage formulas need to be tweaked, and dLVL needs to be seriously revamped or removed from the equation.

it really doesn't have anything to do with +enmity. it's jsut a fault of the current formulas.

2) +/- Enmity does nothing at all in PVP or other potential future content where hate mechanics are suppressed (such as a boss that completely ignores enmity).

Ahhh, but this is an assumption. in SWTOR tanks can 'provoke' an enemy and reduce their damage to allies. +enmity could affect this. more enmity means a longer duration to a debuff or potency of a debuff applied when tuanting/provoking.

hate threshold could also balance how much damage you do, making -enmity worthwhile. as you hit an enemy they resist your attacks more and more due to hate threshold. an enmity dump could be used to reset this. and -enmity gear could delay how long it takes you to reach this cap. there are many creative ways to use the mechanic in PvP.

3) As tank gear progression is split between survivability and increased enmity generation, in the long run tank enmity probably cannot keep up with DD gear progression anyway, as for them the sole purpose of every upgrade is to further increase damage output.

right now hate=damage. until the formula changes this will be true. the best PLDs I've seen have capped (or better) STR/MND. and the same is true of WAR with STR/VIT. efficiently rotating abilities is what differentiates the good from the great.

I would propose that abilities like Flash and Provoke scale based on one or more defensive stats, like Defense or their primary and secondary attributes. That way tanks can focus on simply being tanks. This would be similar to how WoW solves the problem.

PLD already functions like this to a degree. MND plays a role in modifying an enmity multiplier for combos. It could be easy to add a MND based multiplier to PLD abilities and a VIT based one to WAR. I'm not against this.

[R0ssdaddy]

This thread doesnt make any sense.

First off, filling all your slots with +enmity doesnt make you any less survivable. Defense and VIT dont ahve much of an impact while tanking high level mobs. Sure a couple extra 100 HP feels nice, but its not ever necessary.

Adding more +enmity means that your high-powered DDs can let loose. This not only leads to faster kills (Which we always need with speedrun-centric content), but its way more fun as it creates the competitive atmosphere between tank and DD.

So in closing, the benefits of +enmity far outweighs anything else you could put in those slots. DEF, VIT, HP, ATT and ACC, really any other stat is not as important for tanks as enmity+ is if you are playing with a high-powered party.

Dont abolish it SE, give us some more pieces! Rings would be cool =)

[Onisake]

This thread doesnt make any sense.

First off, filling all your slots with +enmity doesnt make you any less survivable. Defense and VIT dont ahve much of an impact while tanking high level mobs. Sure a couple extra 100 HP feels nice, but its not ever necessary.

Adding more +enmity means that your high-powered DDs can let loose. This not only leads to faster kills (Which we always need with speedrun-centric content), but its way more fun as it creates the competitive atmosphere between tank and DD.

So in closing, the benefits of +enmity far outweighs anything else you could put in those slots. DEF, VIT, HP, ATT and ACC, really any other stat is not as important for tanks as enmity+ is if you are playing with a high-powered party.

Dont abolish it SE, give us some more pieces! Rings would be cool =)

buh!? do you tank at all?

*Swings sword with +80000 enmity in gear/materia/etc.*

*misses*

*watches party die*

[Duelle]

I personally would not mind doing away with +enmity. I can see it's merit, but on PLD currently there is a big modifier to hate generation based on MND. making +enmity less important on PLD in comparing it to WAR. WAR has no modifiers to hate generation, and relies more on direct damage than PLD. so +enmity is more important to this class.

Personally, the class/job itself should have modifiers built-in. I once suggested a PLD trait called "Shining Armor", which grants the PLD an enmity modifier to do away with the need of spacking +Enmity gear. Tanks having their modifiers built in puts the burden of holding aggro directly on the tank rather than creating doubt over whether they're stacking enough +Enmity or not. It also frees up item budget points that can be used for other stats, like Accuracy.

PLD already functions like this to a degree. MND plays a role in modifying an enmity multiplier for combos. It could be easy to add a MND based multiplier to PLD abilities and a VIT based one to WAR. I'm not against this.

Yes and no. PLD's template, the WoW Prot Warrior, is built around using attacks to hold aggro. A prot warrior is either using Devastate to give the mob the stacking Defense Down debuff, Thunderclap and Shockwave for AoE aggro, Shield Slam when off cooldown and when Sword & Board procs and whatever shout they were assigned to use by the raid leader. Abilities are just for those instance where they need to recover aggro. Prot Warrior's version of Taunt is basically the current MNK's Taunt, but with abilities that supplement it's use as part of a tank's toolset. The attacks scaled part from attack power, and part from the warrior's native enmity modifiers.

Overall, I agree with the OP. It's pointless and a waste of item budget to have +Enmity and -Enmity as stats. Modifiers should be class/job-inherent.

[Aceofspades]

This thread doesnt make any sense.

First off, filling all your slots with +enmity doesnt make you any less survivable. Defense and VIT dont ahve much of an impact while tanking high level mobs. Sure a couple extra 100 HP feels nice, but its not ever necessary.

Adding more +enmity means that your high-powered DDs can let loose. This not only leads to faster kills (Which we always need with speedrun-centric content), but its way more fun as it creates the competitive atmosphere between tank and DD.

So in closing, the benefits of +enmity far outweighs anything else you could put in those slots. DEF, VIT, HP, ATT and ACC, really any other stat is not as important for tanks as enmity+ is if you are playing with a high-powered party.

Dont abolish it SE, give us some more pieces! Rings would be cool =)

-.-

Realy? .......... Im gona be nice and just say your wrong. If I elaberate its gona bring out the trolls and this thread dosent need that. But seroiusly... /face palm

[Madrox]

-.-

Realy? .......... Im gona be nice and just say your wrong. If I elaberate its gona bring out the trolls and this thread dosent need that. But seroiusly... /face palm

It is true.. to an extent.

It is not like enmity even gives you much of a boost, iirc it's along the lines of +10=1%~

[Onisake]

Personally, the class/job itself should have modifiers built-in. I once suggested a PLD trait called "Shining Armor", which grants the PLD an enmity modifier to do away with the need of spacking +Enmity gear. Tanks having their modifiers built in puts the burden of holding aggro directly on the tank rather than creating doubt over whether they're stacking enough +Enmity or not. It also frees up item budget points that can be used for other stats, like Accuracy.

after hitting stat caps:
for pld ACC>enmity
for war enmity>acc (thought not by much)

you can tell this by looking at the relic weapons for each class.

I both like and dislike the complexity. if enmity modifiers are already built in it removes a bit of customization, and it makes it more clear what items are BiS.

currently this is a bit unclear and two PLDs could have two completely different builds and be just as viable.

Yes and no. PLD's template, the WoW Prot Warrior, is built around using attacks to hold aggro. A prot warrior is either using Devastate to give the mob the stacking Defense Down debuff, Thunderclap and Shockwave for AoE aggro, Shield Slam when off cooldown and when Sword & Board procs and whatever shout they were assigned to use by the raid leader. Abilities are just for those instance where they need to recover aggro. Prot Warrior's version of Taunt is basically the current MNK's Taunt, but with abilities that supplement it's use as part of a tank's toolset. The attacks scaled part from attack power, and part from the warrior's native enmity modifiers.

Overall, I agree with the OP. It's pointless and a waste of item budget to have +Enmity and -Enmity as stats. Modifiers should be class/job-inherent.

Yes and no. *completely different topic*

enmity in WoW is very different than FFXIV. battle mechanics are very different. the two are not comparable.

fact: MND affects enmity multiplier for PLD combos. It's not a 'yes and no.' PLD already has an inherent modifier. WAR lacks it.

MND also indirectly affects cures, bigger cures mean bigger hate generation. I think one thing PLD could use is access to Cura. this would help diversify builds a bit more. some plds could go heal route for enmity generation, others could go damage.

for heal PLDs enmity would be more important. you could budget stats to defense (MND, HP/MP, VIT, Defense, enmity) and be just as viable as damage plds (STR/MND, HP, Defense, acc, Enmity).

+/- enmity i think is fine. you don't NEED either one to be good at your job. it can help you push your damage even higher. or allow your DD to push their limits further. but for the majority of people playing this is not important. fine as is. a couple tweeks to abilities will go further than abolishing this mechanic. (PLDs access to Cura, add a VIT enmity modifier to steel cyclone)

[Gukswar]

For F sake can you people stop talking about FFXI and WOW...

Jeez this is FFXIV ( Not lol wo and lol ffxi )

[ShivenCasull]

Overall, I agree with the OP. It's pointless and a waste of item budget to have +Enmity and -Enmity as stats. Modifiers should be class/job-inherent.

This, have the enmity modifier built into natural stats.

IMO a tank should have to choose between damage capabilities (or in PLDs case, healing) and pure defensive stats to maintain threat. Having a threat modifer feels restricting..

On the other side of the coin, there is -Enmity for DD but I still think the whole thing should be revamped.

[Duelle]

I both like and dislike the complexity. if enmity modifiers are already built in it removes a bit of customization, and it makes it more clear what items are BiS.

Customization is nice, but not when it messes with stat priorities and item budgets. It was pointless in FFXI and it certainly is pointless here.

enmity in WoW is very different than FFXIV. battle mechanics are very different. the two are not comparable.

They are when we essentially have the same class. XIV basically took the prot warrior and tried to hammer it into the mold known as the FFXI PLD, while undoing a bunch of the improvements that spec received over the years. Phalanx's utter lack of anything other than being a set up for spirits within makes this evident (the template originally had a huge enmity modifier that was eventually nerfed and replaced with a high damage modifier instead).

MND affects enmity multiplier for PLD combos. It's not a 'yes and no.' PLD already has an inherent modifier. WAR lacks it.

I'm not talking about just combos. I'm talking about everything the PLD does. It should have a built-in enmity modifier that increases enmity generated by every action the PLD takes.

MND also indirectly affects cures, bigger cures mean bigger hate generation. I think one thing PLD could use is access to Cura. this would help diversify builds a bit more. some plds could go heal route for enmity generation, others could go damage.

As I've constantly said, the tank has other things to worry about than curing others. Not to mention it would make it even more of a pain to balance the job. If you really want to have some cure that affects others, I'd change Holy Succor into a smart heal if cast on self:

Holy Succor: Restores HP. If cast on self, heals the party member with the lowest HP for half of the amount you recover.

This way you supplement the healer rather than do part of their job. You also have the option of using it on yourself and patch up someone else in the group or using it on someone else.

+/- enmity i think is fine. you don't NEED either one to be good at your job. it can help you push your damage even higher. or allow your DD to push their limits further. but for the majority of people playing this is not important. fine as is. a couple tweeks to abilities will go further than abolishing this mechanic. (PLDs access to Cura, add a VIT enmity modifier to steel cyclone)

I'd rather not have to put so much into a stat to begin with. Not to mention it messes with gear item budgets, which I notice not many realize just how wasted stats affect gear design.

IMO a tank should have to choose between damage capabilities (or in PLDs case, healing) and pure defensive stats to maintain threat. Having a threat modifer feels restricting.

What I was getting at is more inherent percentage modifiers to every action you take.

On the other side of the coin, there is -Enmity for DD but I still think the whole thing should be revamped.

Giving DPS enmity drop abilities would be a good place to start, IMO.