Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[Onisake]

Customization is nice, but not when it messes with stat priorities and item budgets. It was pointless in FFXI and it certainly is pointless here.

Stat priorities in FFXI were FAR simpler. every DD class was STR/DEX/ATT that was it

PLD and NIN were the go-to tanks. PLD more so after the utsusemi nerf. and the fact that ninja had few hate tools compared to PLD.

+enmity on FFXI PLD was BEASTLY. I personally ran +enmity and self cured for the majority of my hate generation. because you could shield block while casting, and I was only about 5 points away from maximum obtainable shield skill this worked wonders for me. curing others played a very important role in raids, especially when back-up tanking or crowd-control. I could cure the sleepers, pop sentinel when they woke up and prevent the BLMs from getting WTFpwned.

I could do the same when curing a main tank. get on the htae list and slowly build my hate for in case he died. i could then pop a few abilities and take over. i knew how to ride the hate line in FFXI, which is not something a lot of tanks (especially back-ups) did. there is a time and place to lose hate on purpose.

so no. it was not pointless in FFXI. i wonder if we played the same game. when you say oyu want to remove stat budgets the way you're saying it, all I see is 'I'm lazy. dumb it down for me'

They are when we essentially have the same class. XIV basically took the prot warrior and tried to hammer it into the mold known as the FFXI PLD, while undoing a bunch of the improvements that spec received over the years. Phalanx's utter lack of anything other than being a set up for spirits within makes this evident (the template originally had a huge enmity modifier that was eventually nerfed and replaced with a high damage modifier instead).

they are different games. different mechanics. talking about them does not improve the level of discussion about enmity in FFXIV. I'm not getting into this. it is irrelevant. WoW and FFXI are fundamentally different than 14. do not bring them to this discussion.

Damage=hate. if you do no damage, the multiplier does nothing.

if you are below stat caps and tanking in FFXIV, you need to work on hitting stat caps. the multipliers are not significant enough to warrant focusing on that before focusing on damage.

once you hit stat caps, adding enmity does more for hate generation than adding more primary stats. this is assuming you can connect. IE: accuracy > enmity as a hate tool.

if you are wasting time budgeting enmity, it's because you're at STR/MND and ACC cap already. and even then, it's far better to improve VIT/DEF and HP.

If you're worried about +enmity before you're at stat caps, you're doing it wrong. if you're above stat caps, it's your decision to worry about it.

I'm not talking about just combos. I'm talking about everything the PLD does. It should have a built-in enmity modifier that increases enmity generated by every action the PLD takes.

Irrelevent and not needed. currently PLD can generate suffecient enmity without needing a ton of +enmity gear. i've seen stat caped plds with nothing but maybe +30 enmity. i've seen a lot of bad PLDs with 60+ enmity not being able to do crap because they can't connect, and don't cure themselves. essentialy the only place on PLD you should put enmity are slots where ou can't get primary stats you need in a significant quantity. belt, earring, etc.

we don't need boosters to our current actions, we need more actions to do period.

arguable WAR is the only tank that would realy benefit from increased modifiers to enmity as it is more reliant on damage than abilities. it recieves a more 'steady' stream of hate generation, so the extra oomph is needed. PLD can rely more on bursts of hate.

As I've constantly said, the tank has other things to worry about than curing others. Not to mention it would make it even more of a pain to balance the job. If you really want to have some cure that affects others, I'd change Holy Succor into a smart heal if cast on self:

Holy Succor: Restores HP. If cast on self, heals the party member with the lowest HP for half of the amount you recover.

This way you supplement the healer rather than do part of their job. You also have the option of using it on yourself and patch up someone else in the group or using it on someone else.

Translation: I'm lazy

I'd rather not have to put so much into a stat to begin with. Not to mention it messes with gear item budgets, which I notice not many realize just how wasted stats affect gear design.

What I was getting at is more inherent percentage modifiers to every action you take.

if it's useful its not a wasted stat. if i have a corvette car and i spend 50 a week on gas. I'm not wasting my money on gas. I need it to run my car

If I have a prius and i'm spending 50 a month on gas, i'm still not wasting money on gas.

The prius is more effecient, and there is an opportunity cost associated between the decision to drive a corvette over a prius.

both are viable alternatives. which one i choose to drive is up to me. both do their jobs and do them well. the ultimate decision is how effeciently do I want to complete the task of getting from point A to point B.

In other words a tank has the option of spending a ton of money on enmity and 'using more gas' on trying to do lots of actions quickly to build up hate. (this is because damage/healing=hate)

Or they can hit stat caps. and make a few actions worth a lot more hate. their combos hit harder and their heals heal more.

Giving DPS enmity drop abilities would be a good place to start, IMO.

most DD classes have this available to them. either through something they have natively or through chameleon.

[Duelle]

Stat priorities in FFXI were FAR simpler. every DD class was STR/DEX/ATT that was it

False. The reason sushi was so popular was because you needed the accuracy percentage boost to reach hit cap. Prior to sushi accuracy on gear was and even now continues to be expensive. Your e-peen stacked STR for WS and Attack for white hits meant nothing if your accuracy was crap, especially so in the hopefully never-to-return days of overhunting where you needed those high values to beat out level correction.

so no. it was not pointless in FFXI. i wonder if we played the same game. when you say oyu want to remove stat budgets the way you're saying it, all I see is 'I'm lazy. dumb it down for me'

You do know this all was possible only through abusing gear swaps, right? Something that we can't and hopefully will never be able to do here. Attempting to accuse me of lazyness does little to add to the discussion.

they are different games. different mechanics. talking about them does not improve the level of discussion about enmity in FFXIV. I'm not getting into this. it is irrelevant. WoW and FFXI are fundamentally different than 14. do not bring them to this discussion.

As I said, one is the template, the other is SE's version of the template. I have issues with SE's version of the template when it plays in an inferior manner, and as such I wish it could be corrected in a way that the job's design and gameplay makes sense. Removing WoW from the conversation, I can list my problems with PLD.

1) Low base weapon damage (class-inherent): This would be fine, if both tank classes in this game were designed to do low damage. That's not the case, as we both know. If one was designed around big hits but infrequent hits, and the other was designed around more special attack/ability spam (netting both similar DPS in the process), you might be on to something. They've tried to compensate for this by allowing sword weapon skills to ignore mob defense, which only circumvents the problem instead of fixing it.

2) Lack of inherent enmity modifiers (applies to both tanks, actually): This gives way to the stupidity of +/- Enmity on gear and materia (which is a waste of stats in the greater picture). In case you forgot, SE even decided to buff enmity on materia to make it more appealing and look like less of a waste. Of course, things sadly went in the other direction and now the things' are pricey as hell. That part of the item budget could go into other things, too.

3) AoE damage/aggro (or lack thereof): The original reason why people pissed all over PLD, and the thing the current design is trying to allow in the form of "niche" gameplay. Instead of addressing this (notice how some of us want Circle Slash back and a shorter cooldown on War Drum?), they chose to up shield block chance and make sword WS ignore mob defense to create an excuse for people to not ignore PLD.

4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.

And I very much doubt encounter and boss mechanics are going to stay exactly as they are right now. You're not going to have time to heal others if you're switching hate with another tank, avoiding environmentals hazards, jumping or doing other things to prevent debuffs from stacking, kiting walls of fire while trying to stay alive, avoiding poison geisers, chaining debuffs on the boss and much much more. At most you might get a chance to toss around heals during air phases, but even then that's tertiary utility. If my wanting more movement and more action in tank gameplay and encounters in general makes me lazy, then I am guilty as charged.

Damage=hate. if you do no damage, the multiplier does nothing.

Guess you forgot that baseline enmity modifiers in tank classes work in tandem with any built-in enmity bonuses abilities and attacks have and are not standalone. You can have abilities that do low damage but have high enmity modifiers on their own BEFORE factoring in aggro bonuses inherent to being a tank. It's legacy tank design from before the "tank DPS matters" idea caught on. Phalanx plays into this because it is smack in the middle, which is not a good place to be when you take into account that reactionary abilities should be worthwhile rather than just there until you complete Parley on High Ground (still LFG for that one, btw).

we don't need boosters to our current actions, we need more actions to do period.

If nothing else, you and I agree on this point.

Of course, I mention class-inherent enmity boosts in context of removing "+/- Enmity" from the game. If you entirely remove +/- Enmity gear and materia from the game, you need something to fill the gap. Where you want VIT and MND being enmity modifiers for everything, I say just give the classes a native enmity multiplier and build/balance each class' abilities around that. If only because I don't think enmity modifiers should be tampered with by stats.

[Ganbachi]

Having enmity removed and provoke/flash/taunt pull 100% threat will help when dead tanks get back on their feet. I'd like it be like that at least.

[Reika]

Having enmity removed and provoke/flash/taunt pull 100% threat will help when dead tanks get back on their feet. I'd like it be like that at least.

maybe, but then again some people might see that as easy-modeing the game. Plus taunt is H2H specific now, and that was as close to what you want as the taunts got .

Maybe if they had a new 5m or so reuse skill that puts you back on top of threat instead for in case the tank were to die.



Also, I don't think +/- enmity stats need to go. I liked how they increased the numbers on the rage and serenity materia.

[Synfrag]

I realize that this stat was added to allow tanks to scale up their enmity production in order to keep up with damage dealer gear progress, however, the current implementation is problematic for a few reasons:

1) Tanks are forced to choose between survival, or "tankyness", and the ability to hold hate. I don't think this is a choice most players particularly like to make. Currently all content favours focusing on holding hate because rewards are based on speed (AV, CC), defense isn't needed (Ifrit, Moogle), or because slow and steady makes things harder, not easier (Garuda).

2) +/- Enmity does nothing at all in PVP or other potential future content where hate mechanics are suppressed (such as a boss that completely ignores enmity).

3) As tank gear progression is split between survivability and increased enmity generation, in the long run tank enmity probably cannot keep up with DD gear progression anyway, as for them the sole purpose of every upgrade is to further increase damage output.

I would propose that abilities like Flash and Provoke scale based on one or more defensive stats, like Defense or their primary and secondary attributes. That way tanks can focus on simply being tanks. This would be similar to how WoW solves the problem.

Ahh.... go back to WoW? Where stats are so blown out of proportion that every class in the game has been completely broken at one time or another? FFXIV is not the only game that has these stats

This is not a WoW hate reply but it really shouldn't be used as an example, they are entirely different. FFXIV (And XI) approach stats with a little grace. A little bit goes a long way approach. Even in full +Enmity gear a tank can fail based on Damage output, sorry "DPS" as well as healing and skills. Just like a WHM can over cure their -Enmity stats. Would I rather have more MND or Cure Pot on my WHM? Not really, considering I never have a tank die on me because of shear damage. If they die it is because I am healing/raising other people and usually from the tank losing hate. I would rather never get hit and be able to survive to heal the tank. Especially the tank that isn't going to die because I'm busy healing other people when he lost hate?

In other words, the tanks ability to survive is me, his ability to maintain hate on the boss is him. It's a symbiotic relationship that gear to that approach. Unfortunately there are just as many bad WHMs as there are Tanks and it sounds like maybe you get stuck with the bad ones.

In the end your point is rather moot. It instead is your preference because you want what? 200 more HP from a Vitality meld? That is the equivalent of 1 tick of regen.

Also, if you don't like gearing for Enmity consider using Panacea's to augment it. It may not be a perfect solution but Maddening Potion adds 100 Enmity for a minute every 4 minutes. Mages use one that gives us -80 for the same duration.

[Synfrag]

4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.

lolwhat? Wow that sounds like a hefty load there buddy! You need some help with that?

Tank has 3 things to worry about: position, hate and skill cooldowns.

Position is kinda a no brainer it's the basics of moving around. All the classes have to do it. DD have to position for weaponskills and avoid AoEs. Mages have to do it to avoid AoEs and handle when the tank gets knocked out of range.

Hate is guess what, not just managed by tanks. Mages use -Emnity skills as they are pumping cures and nukes. Other melee should also be paying attention to the threat meter.

Lastly we have skill cooldowns. You have to make sure you stay on top of your skills to maintain hate right? Well melee DDs have to pay attention to them as well to maintain high damage output. Again as above mages are dropping CDs on MP recovery, DMG output, AoE Buffs, Instant raises while casting spells which you have to be standing still for yet somehow be able to reach 6-7 people scattered everywhere.

So, If a tanks job isn't to look at party HP does that mean it's not a mages job to look at the threat meter? Or do anything about it when it starts flashing red? That's the tanks job why do I even have this stupid Enmity reduction skill. Stupid, Stupid SE...

If you don't have WHM leveled yet I'd suggest you learn the other side before having a nerdrage. It adds complexity to the game and, well, maybe you just aren't built for tanking? If I can heal 6-7 people, stay alive, manage my MP and hate generation while continuing to throw out buffs, regens and the occasional raise and nuke, I think you can toss a cure or two to the front liners.

[Lux_Rayna]

1) Low base weapon damage (class-inherent): This would be fine, if both tank classes in this game were designed to do low damage. That's not the case, as we both know. If one was designed around big hits but infrequent hits, and the other was designed around more special attack/ability spam (netting both similar DPS in the process), you might be on to something. They've tried to compensate for this by allowing sword weapon skills to ignore mob defense, which only circumvents the problem instead of fixing it.

This is only a problem because Defense is meaningless right now, which was supposed to be the PLD's shining point.

2) Lack of inherent enmity modifiers (applies to both tanks, actually): This gives way to the stupidity of +/- Enmity on gear and materia (which is a waste of stats in the greater picture). In case you forgot, SE even decided to buff enmity on materia to make it more appealing and look like less of a waste. Of course, things sadly went in the other direction and now the things' are pricey as hell. That part of the item budget could go into other things, too.

I think +enmity is fine. DD's just need to realize that they can't do max dmg the entire time. As a Bard I have to manage my threat constantly. Like constantly. Its not a class problem, its a retard DD problem.

3) AoE damage/aggro (or lack thereof): The original reason why people pissed all over PLD, and the thing the current design is trying to allow in the form of "niche" gameplay. Instead of addressing this (notice how some of us want Circle Slash back and a shorter cooldown on War Drum?), they chose to up shield block chance and make sword WS ignore mob defense to create an excuse for people to not ignore PLD.

The way I understood it is that PLD is a boss tank, while WAR is more of a trash mob tank. PLD is 1v1, while WAR is AoE. Its like how you have single-target dps classes and aoe bomb dps classes.

4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.

Why would he be looking at ppl's health bars? The healing is there so the PLD can heal himself...as in he looks at his own health bar. Or he could drop sacred prism cures as part of his hate rotation. The idea is a great one actually, its just people are too pigeon-holed into whatever silly class mechanics this community decided on. Why do you think WHMs can pull so much hate? Healing generates enmity. PLD get extra enmity genercation because, derp, they have cures. There it is, the enmity generation you are looking for. Just put prism cure on a rotation and be amazed. It takes some pressure off of your WHMs, and generates extra hate. What is the problem? Who said the PLD had to act like a WHM. Keep prism cure cooldown and thats it!

And I very much doubt encounter and boss mechanics are going to stay exactly as they are right now. You're not going to have time to heal others if you're switching hate with another tank, avoiding environmentals hazards, jumping or doing other things to prevent debuffs from stacking, kiting walls of fire while trying to stay alive, avoiding poison geisers, chaining debuffs on the boss and much much more. At most you might get a chance to toss around heals during air phases, but even then that's tertiary utility. If my wanting more movement and more action in tank gameplay and encounters in general makes me lazy, then I am guilty as charged.

If you have time to stand still and use a weapon skill, you have time to prism cure. Its not a monumental task, you are being dramatic.

[Aceofspades]

-.- soo much wrong with soo much on here

1) Defense is infact NOT worthless, otherwise we would have BLM tanks, please dont make me elaberate further, im out of tylenol and preaching comon sense to those without it gives me a head ache.

2) enmity is not a problem soo long as everyone in the party dose their part, have been testing all my abilities in Turtleback skirm lately (and before you respond by saying somthing ignorant like "skirm is child's play) keep in mind the easier the mob is the harder dds hit it and thus the faster they steal hate, hense if you realy wana test enmity pull on a pld go for the easy mobs as the majority of their enmity pull is not (or at least it shouldnt be) from DPS. Let me see if I can break this down as easy as possable.

Enmity abilities/combos in order of most effective

Rampart (once you have any hate on target and rampart lands on most/all party members.)

Everything below I would recomend with sent when possable.

Spirits within combo

(belive it or not) Fast blade > Flat blade combo (this is given you are stacking mind, the helm is the only place I stack mind, two tier fours seems to be amble, pluss anywhere else you can add it that dosent reduce damage mitigation stats.) keeping in mind its on a 10 second cool down, this can be spamed faster then voke or flash

Useing Holy Succor on the person in the party with the highest enmity, keep in mind the more HP it recovers the more enmity it will generate, using it on yourself is also good but because of mp cost : hp recoverd, I find Stone skin is more mp cost effective . HOWEVER if your bard can put mp song on you , it shouldnt take much to do a self heal, when needed. The lack of opertunity to use this ability on another party member is the only reason why I dont use it often as the others.

Wardrum. A bit more effort then should be needed to use this ability, imo, but a strong voke none the less.


IMO both voke and flash offer roughly same enmity however Flash seems stronger on PLD

I have +34 enmity on the belt, +10 on the wristlet and i think the earings were +8 , with that current set up, and blms knowing how to perform, we finish turtle back with 10minutes to spare somtimes, pending on timing of hate resets and how often it happens. And IF you think its simple to do, then atempt it without the tank dieing once. Saw that post where somone wanted the tank to be able to pull hate easier if they die. Try somthing new, try NOT DIEING, you dds might have to put 2 seconds between each tp ability, but hot damn, you may actually finish faster if hate controll is kept without the tank having to be soo damn squishy he/she is pushing their luck.

Lets clear this up, shall we? Priorities on tanking are NOT HATE > Survivability. Sacraficing survivabilty is not only counter productive , its needless. Hate controll can be kept without becoming as squishy as a WAR. And the tank staying alive is NOT the healers responsability solely, the tank is and must be the most responsable for keeping the tank alive. If you are too reliant on your whms then I would suggest replacing your tank with a BLM, would probably do better at staying alive and generating hate anyways.

Even tho I see this as being comon sense, I am told that comon sense isn't very comon these days, I blame video games lol

[Lux_Rayna]

-.- soo much wrong with soo much on here

1) Defense is infact NOT worthless, otherwise we would have BLM tanks, please dont make me elaberate further, im out of tylenol and preaching comon sense to those without it gives me a head ache.

We probably dont have blm tanks because its hard to DD when your being knocked around. That and they don't exactly have any form of threat control. Defense is definitely not the reason.

For all practical purposes defense doesn't do a whole lot. Anything where a tank is really necessary will still do a crap ton of dmg to you, no matter wth you're wearing. You know, level curve and all that. Thats generally why ppl fret over hp and dmg reduction skills (sent, lunar curtains) rather than their defense. The only time I think its really noticeable is against mobs your level. Anything drastically over your level will curve to kick your ass regardless of how much def you have. And anything worth tanking is drastically over your level, making the whole def thing a bit moot.

As for Bards casting MP song, there's no reason they can't. If a DD can use a weapon skill a Bard can sing a damn song. And if they're worried about taking dmg, derp, thats what Stoneskin is for. The only time I don't song my PLD is if the boss is in zerk mode and I can't afford to get in. But if i've been doing my job the whole time the PLD should have Ballad on at that point anyway. This is especially true now that you can run and cancel casts. I just don't get what bards are afraid of. That stoneskin is there for you to eat some hits. Might as well eat some during a song. And if you want it back prism stoneskin is your friend. Im sure the WHMs will appreciate it.

[Aceofspades]

We probably dont have blm tanks because its hard to DD when your being knocked around. That and they don't exactly have any form of threat control. Defense is definitely not the reason.

For all practical purposes defense doesn't do a whole lot. Anything where a tank is really necessary will still do a crap ton of dmg to you, no matter wth you're wearing. You know, level curve and all that. Thats generally why ppl fret over hp and dmg reduction skills (sent, lunar curtains) rather than their defense. The only time I think its really noticeable is against mobs your level. Anything drastically over your level will curve to kick your ass regardless of how much def you have. And anything worth tanking is drastically over your level, making the whole def thing a bit moot.

As for Bards casting MP song, there's no reason they can't. If a DD can use a weapon skill a Bard can sing a damn song. And if they're worried about taking dmg, derp, thats what Stoneskin is for. The only time I don't song my PLD is if the boss is in zerk mode and I can't afford to get in. But if i've been doing my job the whole time the PLD should have Ballad on at that point anyway. This is especially true now that you can run and cancel casts. I just don't get what bards are afraid of. That stoneskin is there for you to eat some hits. Might as well eat some during a song. And if you want it back prism stoneskin is your friend. Im sure the WHMs will appreciate it.

I disagree with the defense argument. Reason I disagree is because I double stacked teir 3 fire resist on shield and body, useing ifrits weapon, and fire resist jewlry, (now dated) my fire resist was almost 500, even tho the damage I took on ifritst magic attacks was indeed far less, because the physical defense was gimped I still took almost 2k more damage for the same length of time. Ofcourse this was subject to many variable soo we tested it at least a dozen times. each time fire resist worked well with magic damage but the physical attacks raped me hard. After focusing back on Def, my damage parse in a 9 minute fight went down by almost 5k, after i got some double melds on hq gear, increasing both vit and def , damage taken continued to go down.

as far as bards go, I agree, I am currently blessed with a good bard in my static , if i need mp song, he finds a way to get it to me. that being said tho, i still perfer to save holy succor for times where I am having an extreemly hard time keeping hate or the whms are dead and 15 minute ability is used up. Stone skin , by far, offers more hp per mp spent. roughly 1500 hp per stone skin that costs half that of holy succor, and holy succor only gives me roughly 850 hp back, not sure as i dont use it often.