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  1. #1
    Player
    Onisake's Avatar
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    Naomi Onisake
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    Sargatanas
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    Marauder Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by LaymanX View Post
    To be honest I've never been a fan of the "I'll take all the hits because all the other classes can't" style of tank in the first place.
    How it should work is, instead of tanks focusing on skills that direct all damage to them so the other players have nothing to worry about, they should mostly have skills that mitigate the damage the other players will take when they do get attacked. It's fine if the tank class has some skills that force the enemy to attack them but it shouldn't be based around it.

    In other words enmity should essentially be abolished. That was part of the challenge of most of the other FF games: Sometimes party members you don't want to get attacked would get attacked.
    WHM is the new tank! AWWW YEAH!!!?!?!1one!

    in multiplayer games tanks can serve a number of functions. but the primary function of the tank has always been to control the field of battle.

    To use League of Legends as an example: tanks in this game primarily function as initiators. they run in first. take the brunt of the damage, often dieing in the process, and allows their damage dealing classes to do what they do best: deal damage. Tanks also have a lot of crowd-control abilities to allow them to disrupt enemy DDs and prevent their own DDs from dieing too quickly. It's purely about being able to control the field of battle through disrupts.

    but that is a purely PvP environment.

    in a PvE environment the game changes slightly.

    the holy trinity of gaming is tank/DD/support. there's a reason for this. It's fun. It allows people to do what they like to do. if you remove one of those (tank) then the other two must pick up the slack. it's no longer DD, it's DD/tank because you have to worry about taking damage.

    EVERY thing you've said you want tanks to do fall under support. buffing, healing, debuffing, are all support roles. Tanks are there to control the field of battle. DD are there to kill stuff. and support are there to enable DD and tanks to do their jobs better.


    ------------------------------

    back on topic:

    I personally would not mind doing away with +enmity. I can see it's merit, but on PLD currently there is a big modifier to hate generation based on MND. making +enmity less important on PLD in comparing it to WAR. WAR has no modifiers to hate generation, and relies more on direct damage than PLD. so +enmity is more important to this class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frein View Post
    I realize that this stat was added to allow tanks to scale up their enmity production in order to keep up with damage dealer gear progress, however, the current implementation is problematic for a few reasons:

    1) Tanks are forced to choose between survival, or "tankyness", and the ability to hold hate. I don't think this is a choice most players particularly like to make. Currently all content favours focusing on holding hate because rewards are based on speed (AV, CC), defense isn't needed (Ifrit, Moogle), or because slow and steady makes things harder, not easier (Garuda).
    the biggest factor of tankyness right now is dLVL. that being said when fighting things that matter, dLVL is so high VIT and DEF do nothing for you. all you need is lots and lots of HP.

    really the damage formulas need to be tweaked, and dLVL needs to be seriously revamped or removed from the equation.

    it really doesn't have anything to do with +enmity. it's jsut a fault of the current formulas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frein View Post
    2) +/- Enmity does nothing at all in PVP or other potential future content where hate mechanics are suppressed (such as a boss that completely ignores enmity).
    Ahhh, but this is an assumption. in SWTOR tanks can 'provoke' an enemy and reduce their damage to allies. +enmity could affect this. more enmity means a longer duration to a debuff or potency of a debuff applied when tuanting/provoking.

    hate threshold could also balance how much damage you do, making -enmity worthwhile. as you hit an enemy they resist your attacks more and more due to hate threshold. an enmity dump could be used to reset this. and -enmity gear could delay how long it takes you to reach this cap. there are many creative ways to use the mechanic in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frein View Post
    3) As tank gear progression is split between survivability and increased enmity generation, in the long run tank enmity probably cannot keep up with DD gear progression anyway, as for them the sole purpose of every upgrade is to further increase damage output.
    right now hate=damage. until the formula changes this will be true. the best PLDs I've seen have capped (or better) STR/MND. and the same is true of WAR with STR/VIT. efficiently rotating abilities is what differentiates the good from the great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frein View Post
    I would propose that abilities like Flash and Provoke scale based on one or more defensive stats, like Defense or their primary and secondary attributes. That way tanks can focus on simply being tanks. This would be similar to how WoW solves the problem.
    PLD already functions like this to a degree. MND plays a role in modifying an enmity multiplier for combos. It could be easy to add a MND based multiplier to PLD abilities and a VIT based one to WAR. I'm not against this.
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  2. #2
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
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    Duelle Urelle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onisake View Post
    I personally would not mind doing away with +enmity. I can see it's merit, but on PLD currently there is a big modifier to hate generation based on MND. making +enmity less important on PLD in comparing it to WAR. WAR has no modifiers to hate generation, and relies more on direct damage than PLD. so +enmity is more important to this class.
    Personally, the class/job itself should have modifiers built-in. I once suggested a PLD trait called "Shining Armor", which grants the PLD an enmity modifier to do away with the need of spacking +Enmity gear. Tanks having their modifiers built in puts the burden of holding aggro directly on the tank rather than creating doubt over whether they're stacking enough +Enmity or not. It also frees up item budget points that can be used for other stats, like Accuracy.

    PLD already functions like this to a degree. MND plays a role in modifying an enmity multiplier for combos. It could be easy to add a MND based multiplier to PLD abilities and a VIT based one to WAR. I'm not against this.
    Yes and no. PLD's template, the WoW Prot Warrior, is built around using attacks to hold aggro. A prot warrior is either using Devastate to give the mob the stacking Defense Down debuff, Thunderclap and Shockwave for AoE aggro, Shield Slam when off cooldown and when Sword & Board procs and whatever shout they were assigned to use by the raid leader. Abilities are just for those instance where they need to recover aggro. Prot Warrior's version of Taunt is basically the current MNK's Taunt, but with abilities that supplement it's use as part of a tank's toolset. The attacks scaled part from attack power, and part from the warrior's native enmity modifiers.

    Overall, I agree with the OP. It's pointless and a waste of item budget to have +Enmity and -Enmity as stats. Modifiers should be class/job-inherent.
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    Last edited by Duelle; 08-03-2012 at 01:15 PM.
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  3. #3
    Player
    Onisake's Avatar
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    Naomi Onisake
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    Sargatanas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Personally, the class/job itself should have modifiers built-in. I once suggested a PLD trait called "Shining Armor", which grants the PLD an enmity modifier to do away with the need of spacking +Enmity gear. Tanks having their modifiers built in puts the burden of holding aggro directly on the tank rather than creating doubt over whether they're stacking enough +Enmity or not. It also frees up item budget points that can be used for other stats, like Accuracy.
    after hitting stat caps:
    for pld ACC>enmity
    for war enmity>acc (thought not by much)

    you can tell this by looking at the relic weapons for each class.

    I both like and dislike the complexity. if enmity modifiers are already built in it removes a bit of customization, and it makes it more clear what items are BiS.

    currently this is a bit unclear and two PLDs could have two completely different builds and be just as viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Yes and no. PLD's template, the WoW Prot Warrior, is built around using attacks to hold aggro. A prot warrior is either using Devastate to give the mob the stacking Defense Down debuff, Thunderclap and Shockwave for AoE aggro, Shield Slam when off cooldown and when Sword & Board procs and whatever shout they were assigned to use by the raid leader. Abilities are just for those instance where they need to recover aggro. Prot Warrior's version of Taunt is basically the current MNK's Taunt, but with abilities that supplement it's use as part of a tank's toolset. The attacks scaled part from attack power, and part from the warrior's native enmity modifiers.

    Overall, I agree with the OP. It's pointless and a waste of item budget to have +Enmity and -Enmity as stats. Modifiers should be class/job-inherent.
    Yes and no. *completely different topic*

    enmity in WoW is very different than FFXIV. battle mechanics are very different. the two are not comparable.

    fact: MND affects enmity multiplier for PLD combos. It's not a 'yes and no.' PLD already has an inherent modifier. WAR lacks it.

    MND also indirectly affects cures, bigger cures mean bigger hate generation. I think one thing PLD could use is access to Cura. this would help diversify builds a bit more. some plds could go heal route for enmity generation, others could go damage.

    for heal PLDs enmity would be more important. you could budget stats to defense (MND, HP/MP, VIT, Defense, enmity) and be just as viable as damage plds (STR/MND, HP, Defense, acc, Enmity).

    +/- enmity i think is fine. you don't NEED either one to be good at your job. it can help you push your damage even higher. or allow your DD to push their limits further. but for the majority of people playing this is not important. fine as is. a couple tweeks to abilities will go further than abolishing this mechanic. (PLDs access to Cura, add a VIT enmity modifier to steel cyclone)
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  4. #4
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
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    Duelle Urelle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onisake View Post
    I both like and dislike the complexity. if enmity modifiers are already built in it removes a bit of customization, and it makes it more clear what items are BiS.
    Customization is nice, but not when it messes with stat priorities and item budgets. It was pointless in FFXI and it certainly is pointless here.

    enmity in WoW is very different than FFXIV. battle mechanics are very different. the two are not comparable.
    They are when we essentially have the same class. XIV basically took the prot warrior and tried to hammer it into the mold known as the FFXI PLD, while undoing a bunch of the improvements that spec received over the years. Phalanx's utter lack of anything other than being a set up for spirits within makes this evident (the template originally had a huge enmity modifier that was eventually nerfed and replaced with a high damage modifier instead).

    MND affects enmity multiplier for PLD combos. It's not a 'yes and no.' PLD already has an inherent modifier. WAR lacks it.
    I'm not talking about just combos. I'm talking about everything the PLD does. It should have a built-in enmity modifier that increases enmity generated by every action the PLD takes.

    MND also indirectly affects cures, bigger cures mean bigger hate generation. I think one thing PLD could use is access to Cura. this would help diversify builds a bit more. some plds could go heal route for enmity generation, others could go damage.
    As I've constantly said, the tank has other things to worry about than curing others. Not to mention it would make it even more of a pain to balance the job. If you really want to have some cure that affects others, I'd change Holy Succor into a smart heal if cast on self:

    Holy Succor: Restores HP. If cast on self, heals the party member with the lowest HP for half of the amount you recover.

    This way you supplement the healer rather than do part of their job. You also have the option of using it on yourself and patch up someone else in the group or using it on someone else.

    +/- enmity i think is fine. you don't NEED either one to be good at your job. it can help you push your damage even higher. or allow your DD to push their limits further. but for the majority of people playing this is not important. fine as is. a couple tweeks to abilities will go further than abolishing this mechanic. (PLDs access to Cura, add a VIT enmity modifier to steel cyclone)
    I'd rather not have to put so much into a stat to begin with. Not to mention it messes with gear item budgets, which I notice not many realize just how wasted stats affect gear design.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivenCasull View Post
    IMO a tank should have to choose between damage capabilities (or in PLDs case, healing) and pure defensive stats to maintain threat. Having a threat modifer feels restricting.
    What I was getting at is more inherent percentage modifiers to every action you take.

    On the other side of the coin, there is -Enmity for DD but I still think the whole thing should be revamped.
    Giving DPS enmity drop abilities would be a good place to start, IMO.
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    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  5. #5
    Player
    Onisake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Customization is nice, but not when it messes with stat priorities and item budgets. It was pointless in FFXI and it certainly is pointless here.
    Stat priorities in FFXI were FAR simpler. every DD class was STR/DEX/ATT that was it

    PLD and NIN were the go-to tanks. PLD more so after the utsusemi nerf. and the fact that ninja had few hate tools compared to PLD.

    +enmity on FFXI PLD was BEASTLY. I personally ran +enmity and self cured for the majority of my hate generation. because you could shield block while casting, and I was only about 5 points away from maximum obtainable shield skill this worked wonders for me. curing others played a very important role in raids, especially when back-up tanking or crowd-control. I could cure the sleepers, pop sentinel when they woke up and prevent the BLMs from getting WTFpwned.

    I could do the same when curing a main tank. get on the htae list and slowly build my hate for in case he died. i could then pop a few abilities and take over. i knew how to ride the hate line in FFXI, which is not something a lot of tanks (especially back-ups) did. there is a time and place to lose hate on purpose.

    so no. it was not pointless in FFXI. i wonder if we played the same game. when you say oyu want to remove stat budgets the way you're saying it, all I see is 'I'm lazy. dumb it down for me'

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    They are when we essentially have the same class. XIV basically took the prot warrior and tried to hammer it into the mold known as the FFXI PLD, while undoing a bunch of the improvements that spec received over the years. Phalanx's utter lack of anything other than being a set up for spirits within makes this evident (the template originally had a huge enmity modifier that was eventually nerfed and replaced with a high damage modifier instead).
    they are different games. different mechanics. talking about them does not improve the level of discussion about enmity in FFXIV. I'm not getting into this. it is irrelevant. WoW and FFXI are fundamentally different than 14. do not bring them to this discussion.

    Damage=hate. if you do no damage, the multiplier does nothing.

    if you are below stat caps and tanking in FFXIV, you need to work on hitting stat caps. the multipliers are not significant enough to warrant focusing on that before focusing on damage.

    once you hit stat caps, adding enmity does more for hate generation than adding more primary stats. this is assuming you can connect. IE: accuracy > enmity as a hate tool.

    if you are wasting time budgeting enmity, it's because you're at STR/MND and ACC cap already. and even then, it's far better to improve VIT/DEF and HP.

    If you're worried about +enmity before you're at stat caps, you're doing it wrong. if you're above stat caps, it's your decision to worry about it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    I'm not talking about just combos. I'm talking about everything the PLD does. It should have a built-in enmity modifier that increases enmity generated by every action the PLD takes.
    Irrelevent and not needed. currently PLD can generate suffecient enmity without needing a ton of +enmity gear. i've seen stat caped plds with nothing but maybe +30 enmity. i've seen a lot of bad PLDs with 60+ enmity not being able to do crap because they can't connect, and don't cure themselves. essentialy the only place on PLD you should put enmity are slots where ou can't get primary stats you need in a significant quantity. belt, earring, etc.

    we don't need boosters to our current actions, we need more actions to do period.

    arguable WAR is the only tank that would realy benefit from increased modifiers to enmity as it is more reliant on damage than abilities. it recieves a more 'steady' stream of hate generation, so the extra oomph is needed. PLD can rely more on bursts of hate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    As I've constantly said, the tank has other things to worry about than curing others. Not to mention it would make it even more of a pain to balance the job. If you really want to have some cure that affects others, I'd change Holy Succor into a smart heal if cast on self:

    Holy Succor: Restores HP. If cast on self, heals the party member with the lowest HP for half of the amount you recover.

    This way you supplement the healer rather than do part of their job. You also have the option of using it on yourself and patch up someone else in the group or using it on someone else.
    Translation: I'm lazy

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    I'd rather not have to put so much into a stat to begin with. Not to mention it messes with gear item budgets, which I notice not many realize just how wasted stats affect gear design.

    What I was getting at is more inherent percentage modifiers to every action you take.
    if it's useful its not a wasted stat. if i have a corvette car and i spend 50 a week on gas. I'm not wasting my money on gas. I need it to run my car

    If I have a prius and i'm spending 50 a month on gas, i'm still not wasting money on gas.

    The prius is more effecient, and there is an opportunity cost associated between the decision to drive a corvette over a prius.

    both are viable alternatives. which one i choose to drive is up to me. both do their jobs and do them well. the ultimate decision is how effeciently do I want to complete the task of getting from point A to point B.

    In other words a tank has the option of spending a ton of money on enmity and 'using more gas' on trying to do lots of actions quickly to build up hate. (this is because damage/healing=hate)

    Or they can hit stat caps. and make a few actions worth a lot more hate. their combos hit harder and their heals heal more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Giving DPS enmity drop abilities would be a good place to start, IMO.
    most DD classes have this available to them. either through something they have natively or through chameleon.
    (1)

  6. #6
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onisake View Post
    Stat priorities in FFXI were FAR simpler. every DD class was STR/DEX/ATT that was it
    False. The reason sushi was so popular was because you needed the accuracy percentage boost to reach hit cap. Prior to sushi accuracy on gear was and even now continues to be expensive. Your e-peen stacked STR for WS and Attack for white hits meant nothing if your accuracy was crap, especially so in the hopefully never-to-return days of overhunting where you needed those high values to beat out level correction.

    so no. it was not pointless in FFXI. i wonder if we played the same game. when you say oyu want to remove stat budgets the way you're saying it, all I see is 'I'm lazy. dumb it down for me'
    You do know this all was possible only through abusing gear swaps, right? Something that we can't and hopefully will never be able to do here. Attempting to accuse me of lazyness does little to add to the discussion.

    they are different games. different mechanics. talking about them does not improve the level of discussion about enmity in FFXIV. I'm not getting into this. it is irrelevant. WoW and FFXI are fundamentally different than 14. do not bring them to this discussion.
    As I said, one is the template, the other is SE's version of the template. I have issues with SE's version of the template when it plays in an inferior manner, and as such I wish it could be corrected in a way that the job's design and gameplay makes sense. Removing WoW from the conversation, I can list my problems with PLD.

    1) Low base weapon damage (class-inherent): This would be fine, if both tank classes in this game were designed to do low damage. That's not the case, as we both know. If one was designed around big hits but infrequent hits, and the other was designed around more special attack/ability spam (netting both similar DPS in the process), you might be on to something. They've tried to compensate for this by allowing sword weapon skills to ignore mob defense, which only circumvents the problem instead of fixing it.

    2) Lack of inherent enmity modifiers (applies to both tanks, actually): This gives way to the stupidity of +/- Enmity on gear and materia (which is a waste of stats in the greater picture). In case you forgot, SE even decided to buff enmity on materia to make it more appealing and look like less of a waste. Of course, things sadly went in the other direction and now the things' are pricey as hell. That part of the item budget could go into other things, too.

    3) AoE damage/aggro (or lack thereof): The original reason why people pissed all over PLD, and the thing the current design is trying to allow in the form of "niche" gameplay. Instead of addressing this (notice how some of us want Circle Slash back and a shorter cooldown on War Drum?), they chose to up shield block chance and make sword WS ignore mob defense to create an excuse for people to not ignore PLD.

    4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.

    And I very much doubt encounter and boss mechanics are going to stay exactly as they are right now. You're not going to have time to heal others if you're switching hate with another tank, avoiding environmentals hazards, jumping or doing other things to prevent debuffs from stacking, kiting walls of fire while trying to stay alive, avoiding poison geisers, chaining debuffs on the boss and much much more. At most you might get a chance to toss around heals during air phases, but even then that's tertiary utility. If my wanting more movement and more action in tank gameplay and encounters in general makes me lazy, then I am guilty as charged.

    Damage=hate. if you do no damage, the multiplier does nothing.
    Guess you forgot that baseline enmity modifiers in tank classes work in tandem with any built-in enmity bonuses abilities and attacks have and are not standalone. You can have abilities that do low damage but have high enmity modifiers on their own BEFORE factoring in aggro bonuses inherent to being a tank. It's legacy tank design from before the "tank DPS matters" idea caught on. Phalanx plays into this because it is smack in the middle, which is not a good place to be when you take into account that reactionary abilities should be worthwhile rather than just there until you complete Parley on High Ground (still LFG for that one, btw).

    we don't need boosters to our current actions, we need more actions to do period.
    If nothing else, you and I agree on this point.

    Of course, I mention class-inherent enmity boosts in context of removing "+/- Enmity" from the game. If you entirely remove +/- Enmity gear and materia from the game, you need something to fill the gap. Where you want VIT and MND being enmity modifiers for everything, I say just give the classes a native enmity multiplier and build/balance each class' abilities around that. If only because I don't think enmity modifiers should be tampered with by stats.
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    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Synfrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post

    4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.
    lolwhat? Wow that sounds like a hefty load there buddy! You need some help with that?

    Tank has 3 things to worry about: position, hate and skill cooldowns.

    Position is kinda a no brainer it's the basics of moving around. All the classes have to do it. DD have to position for weaponskills and avoid AoEs. Mages have to do it to avoid AoEs and handle when the tank gets knocked out of range.

    Hate is guess what, not just managed by tanks. Mages use -Emnity skills as they are pumping cures and nukes. Other melee should also be paying attention to the threat meter.

    Lastly we have skill cooldowns. You have to make sure you stay on top of your skills to maintain hate right? Well melee DDs have to pay attention to them as well to maintain high damage output. Again as above mages are dropping CDs on MP recovery, DMG output, AoE Buffs, Instant raises while casting spells which you have to be standing still for yet somehow be able to reach 6-7 people scattered everywhere.

    So, If a tanks job isn't to look at party HP does that mean it's not a mages job to look at the threat meter? Or do anything about it when it starts flashing red? That's the tanks job why do I even have this stupid Enmity reduction skill. Stupid, Stupid SE...

    If you don't have WHM leveled yet I'd suggest you learn the other side before having a nerdrage. It adds complexity to the game and, well, maybe you just aren't built for tanking? If I can heal 6-7 people, stay alive, manage my MP and hate generation while continuing to throw out buffs, regens and the occasional raise and nuke, I think you can toss a cure or two to the front liners.
    (1)

  8. #8
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    Lux_Rayna's Avatar
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    Miner Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    1) Low base weapon damage (class-inherent): This would be fine, if both tank classes in this game were designed to do low damage. That's not the case, as we both know. If one was designed around big hits but infrequent hits, and the other was designed around more special attack/ability spam (netting both similar DPS in the process), you might be on to something. They've tried to compensate for this by allowing sword weapon skills to ignore mob defense, which only circumvents the problem instead of fixing it.
    This is only a problem because Defense is meaningless right now, which was supposed to be the PLD's shining point.

    2) Lack of inherent enmity modifiers (applies to both tanks, actually): This gives way to the stupidity of +/- Enmity on gear and materia (which is a waste of stats in the greater picture). In case you forgot, SE even decided to buff enmity on materia to make it more appealing and look like less of a waste. Of course, things sadly went in the other direction and now the things' are pricey as hell. That part of the item budget could go into other things, too.
    I think +enmity is fine. DD's just need to realize that they can't do max dmg the entire time. As a Bard I have to manage my threat constantly. Like constantly. Its not a class problem, its a retard DD problem.

    3) AoE damage/aggro (or lack thereof): The original reason why people pissed all over PLD, and the thing the current design is trying to allow in the form of "niche" gameplay. Instead of addressing this (notice how some of us want Circle Slash back and a shorter cooldown on War Drum?), they chose to up shield block chance and make sword WS ignore mob defense to create an excuse for people to not ignore PLD.
    The way I understood it is that PLD is a boss tank, while WAR is more of a trash mob tank. PLD is 1v1, while WAR is AoE. Its like how you have single-target dps classes and aoe bomb dps classes.

    4) Poor job direction: Putting healing on a tank for survivability is one thing. Designing the tank to encourage them to heal others is asking for trouble. As you seem to ignore this over and over, I'll say it again - the tank has plenty to worry about, and should not have to bother looking at other people's lifebars, as their job is to hold mob aggro and not die, not do part of the healer's job.
    Why would he be looking at ppl's health bars? The healing is there so the PLD can heal himself...as in he looks at his own health bar. Or he could drop sacred prism cures as part of his hate rotation. The idea is a great one actually, its just people are too pigeon-holed into whatever silly class mechanics this community decided on. Why do you think WHMs can pull so much hate? Healing generates enmity. PLD get extra enmity genercation because, derp, they have cures. There it is, the enmity generation you are looking for. Just put prism cure on a rotation and be amazed. It takes some pressure off of your WHMs, and generates extra hate. What is the problem? Who said the PLD had to act like a WHM. Keep prism cure cooldown and thats it!

    And I very much doubt encounter and boss mechanics are going to stay exactly as they are right now. You're not going to have time to heal others if you're switching hate with another tank, avoiding environmentals hazards, jumping or doing other things to prevent debuffs from stacking, kiting walls of fire while trying to stay alive, avoiding poison geisers, chaining debuffs on the boss and much much more. At most you might get a chance to toss around heals during air phases, but even then that's tertiary utility. If my wanting more movement and more action in tank gameplay and encounters in general makes me lazy, then I am guilty as charged.
    If you have time to stand still and use a weapon skill, you have time to prism cure. Its not a monumental task, you are being dramatic.
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  9. #9
    Player
    ShivenCasull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    171
    Character
    Shiven Casull
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Overall, I agree with the OP. It's pointless and a waste of item budget to have +Enmity and -Enmity as stats. Modifiers should be class/job-inherent.
    This, have the enmity modifier built into natural stats.

    IMO a tank should have to choose between damage capabilities (or in PLDs case, healing) and pure defensive stats to maintain threat. Having a threat modifer feels restricting..

    On the other side of the coin, there is -Enmity for DD but I still think the whole thing should be revamped.
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