Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[GreyJorildyn]

I like having a trade-off between hate generation and survivability.

Unrelated, but I wish VIT/DEX or maybe VIT/MND were the primary/secondary damage stats for GLA/PLD instead of STR/MND.

And yet no such trade-off really exists. In fact the game's environment doesn't even allow for a tradeoff as the way to allow a party to function at its maximum ceiling is for the tank to generate the most amount of enmity possible. Without enmity bonuses, dps jobs would not be able to push huge numbers safely. For example, and this is not a plug, I have full HDL and enmity accessories. I can keep hate on Garuda while the BLMs push her to 25% in phase I very quickly. The BLMs in my LS primarily have 2-3 melded top-tier gear and they know their spell rotations incredibly well. They ride the bottom-middle edge of RED enmity throughout the this time, but if my cycle is 100% dead-on, they never pull hate and output massive damage. Other tanks in the LS are just as skilled but do not have full HDL and the same situation is not possible. BLMs have to slow way down to compensate for this.

Hate generation is key to everything tank-wise. Have more enmity allows party to kill faster. Killing faster reduces damage taken over time. Reducing damage over time allows your WHMs to nuke and doing that allows you to kill faster. It is all tied in and survivibility plays almost no pertinent role in the equation. Dodge mechanics on bosses is what brings survivibility into the formula, but its opposition is tank damage output, but hate generation. Can't do damage if running from bosses/avoiding abilities.

In agreement, I too think VIT should be part of the GLA/PLD formula, but I'd take MND somewhere in there I guess.

[Aceofspades]

And yet no such trade-off really exists. In fact the game's environment doesn't even allow for a tradeoff as the way to allow a party to function at its maximum ceiling is for the tank to generate the most amount of enmity possible. Without enmity bonuses, dps jobs would not be able to push huge numbers safely. For example, and this is not a plug, I have full HDL and enmity accessories. I can keep hate on Garuda while the BLMs push her to 25% in phase I very quickly. The BLMs in my LS primarily have 2-3 melded top-tier gear and they know their spell rotations incredibly well. They ride the bottom-middle edge of RED enmity throughout the this time, but if my cycle is 100% dead-on, they never pull hate and output massive damage. Other tanks in the LS are just as skilled but do not have full HDL and the same situation is not possible. BLMs have to slow way down to compensate for this.

Hate generation is key to everything tank-wise. Have more enmity allows party to kill faster. Killing faster reduces damage taken over time. Reducing damage over time allows your WHMs to nuke and doing that allows you to kill faster. It is all tied in and survivibility plays almost no pertinent role in the equation. Dodge mechanics on bosses is what brings survivibility into the formula, but its opposition is tank damage output, but hate generation. Can't do damage if running from bosses/avoiding abilities.

In agreement, I too think VIT should be part of the GLA/PLD formula, but I'd take MND somewhere in there I guess.

LOL, killing faster dose not reduce damage taken over time , it simply reduces damage taken due to the fact that the fight is taking less time all together. And I would have to question , seriously, WHMs being able to nuke more offten due to this set up. IF you are taking more damage then another tank, there is a good chance that you are needing more cures more often wich would NOT free up your WHMs to nuke, and if the duration of the fight is inherintly faster due to the party set up it only feeds to the argument that the whms would not have enough time in the fight to contribute to the DPS.

Even tho its great that you get the speed kills and all, I think that is what is broken about the system. Players are reward greater on knowing how to exploit a broken game vs being actually skilled at their jobs. Before anyone gose off on a tangent let me explain...

The party set up described above dose take considerable skill from the tank to mesh vokes and other hate abilities with surviving a fast pace battle, however, I can not say the same for the blm/s or dds in this set up. The only skill involved in the DPS portion is simply knowing wich combos do the most damage and how to speed cycle through the spells. Personally , anyone who solos thm to 50 or blm , would already know these things. As far as the healer/s go, well kinda simple I would think, cast cures non stop to keep the tank alive and x fingers you dont drag hate. combined with well timed buffs and there shouldnt be much more to healing in the proposed set up. All in all a fairly low need for skill involved, having gear that is geared twards this type of party only increases its effectivness, of course.

Now lets look at what is ,imo, a system that requires skill on all parts. I will call this hypothetical boss, XX, as it dose not exist in the game sense there (enless extream ifrit is xx) is no boss that can currently truly challange skilled fight. when fighting XX, the tank can no longer count on the healers to keep him in fresh supply of hp at all times. He must instead , and quite often dose, use most if not all of his/her mp sustane him/her self. The tank must also know, to a fair degree, the ins and outs of his/her job and how best to sustain hate, reduce damage and generate mp/hp when possable. This would also call for the DDs to know what abilities to spam in order to reduce magic use or generate TP, knowing when to use abilities/spells (timing moves and positioning correctly) doing all this and staying out of dangerously low hp numbers at to not add un due stress the healers. The healers, after all, are already doing all they can to keep buffs up , conserve mp ,and reduce enmity drag. Again, this set up is not nessicary simply because there is not fight that exists that would push the skill level of every aspect of the party. And having gear that supports this party set up ,IE dps gear for the dds and enmity- where possable, mp,mind,vit and enmity- for the healer and def/vit/mind/hp/enmity+ for the tank, would only increase the effectivness of this party set up.

Again, all this is my opnion, but then again, some people would put know how to avoid damage , in the "skill department" I agree it dose take practiced tatics and a working knowledge of the fight to avoid attacks from a boss, I certainly dont agree that avoiding attacks necissarly test the skill of the player for that particular job. But if it works for you, go with it, however in its current state, I have yet to see a fight that challanges the skill level of the entire party, All fights tend to lean on one aspect while going OP on everything else to attain speed kills.

[GreyJorildyn]

LOL, killing faster dose not reduce damage taken over time , it simply reduces damage taken due to the fact that the fight is taking less time all together. And I would have to question , seriously, WHMs being able to nuke more offten due to this set up.

I know I promised not to reply to you anymore, but wow. Just wow. You just said the same thing in different words. But see, I know what you're saying because of your DEF/VIT touting in the PLD section. What you're saying is that it doesn't change how much damage you take per hit, which is correct, but it definitely reduces the damage taken over the course of a battle if you can kill something faster. Easily put: something dies faster (ie. 60s), it does less damage to you than if the fight took longer (like 90s). They are absolutely correlated when you compare the same tank type and same person in both situations.

The rest of your dribble has NOTHING to do with anything in this thread. Nobody is talking about DEF/VIT. Nobody is talking about MP spent by tanks to heal themselves. Nobody is talking about avoiding TP attacks. Why do you always bring that stuff into every thread I post in? Stay on topic and please, slow down when you type ffs.

Lastly, if you seriously think that being able to kill something faster in a stable, controlled manner is somehow more a testament to broken game mechanics than player skill, then try running AV in 14minutes and get back to me. It's hardly something that lacks skill.

[Chardrizard]

Dont bother Grey, he even justified his reasoning if a DD pulls hate bc apparently they are proving a point not bc hes terrible at holding hate.

[GreyJorildyn]

Dont bother Grey, he even justified his reasoning if a DD pulls hate bc apparently they are proving a point not bc hes terrible at holding hate.

Yeah I skipped over that part because it was too much to handle. Guess we wait for the "LOL u guyz are bad" post.

Anyhow, to sorta clarify what I posted above. There isn't a straight trade-off, but when I think more on it, that's not entirely true. HDL has a ton of VIT and HP but it isn't the best gear for damage mitigation (obviously). It shines quite a bit on WAR tank since it supports its damage model, but STR takes a huge dive there. It supports PLD's hate generation and gives it nice chunk of HP as well (easy to hit 4k with it). The problem I was highlighting is that what you "lose" by wearing HDL is still lessened by what you gain in enmity and the ability to keep hate from melee performing at upwards 160-170dps on bosses. Without all that enmity, that is seriously impossible.

[Frein]

There is nothing weird about double melding tier 4 materia, but it's random with a low success rate and enmity materia tier 4 it's hugely expensive. Not everyone have the resources or the will to try that way. And for god's sake, i already said enmity+ is a percetual gain not linear, after you stacked some you don't need more, much less 150 <_< and many people already said you stack enmity only in slots where hp can't be stacked
If you're so unwilling to listen someone else different from you, i'm done. I've said everything i could say, but i don't see any change

I know how the Enmity stat works. It's percentage based and thus makes tank hate from damage scale somewhat better than it would if it were a fixed increase, however, since tank damage doesn't really scale, the only option you have left is to increase your hate multiplier by stacking more and more +Enmity.

Here's a theoretical situation that demonstrates why you're wrong:

A tank in tier 1 gear outputs X DPS (damage/s) and his 100 +Enmity multiplies the hate from this to 1.1X HPS (hate/s).

A DD in tier 1 gear outputs 3X DPS.

Some successful raiding allows both the tank and the DD to reach tier 2 gear, so the values are now the following:

Tank in tier 2 gear outputs 1.1X DPS (a 10% increase), he is more durable but his +Enmity remains at 100, so his new HPS value is only 10% higher at 1.21X.

Meanwhile the DD, now in tier 2, probably enjoyed a much greater damage boost and went up to, let's say 4X DPS, a whopping 33,33% increase. In this scenario the damage output of the DD simply scales up much faster than the tank's hate generation.

Also, you definitely do stack +Enmity where HP can be stacked, as demonstrated by my earlier post.

Anyhow, to sorta clarify what I posted above. There isn't a straight trade-off, but when I think more on it, that's not entirely true. HDL has a ton of VIT and HP but it isn't the best gear for damage mitigation (obviously). It shines quite a bit on WAR tank since it supports its damage model, but STR takes a huge dive there. It supports PLD's hate generation and gives it nice chunk of HP as well (easy to hit 4k with it). The problem I was highlighting is that what you "lose" by wearing HDL is still lessened by what you gain in enmity and the ability to keep hate from melee performing at upwards 160-170dps on bosses. Without all that enmity, that is seriously impossible.

You shouldn't be comparing HDL to other currently available gear, however, but to hypotethical gear that could exist if +Enmity was not a thing. In a world where the game mechanical role of +Enmity (scaling hate generation) is instead performed by a formula based on defensive stats, HDL would by far offer the greatest damage mitigation as no stat budget would be "wasted" on +Enmity.

[indira]

There is no content in FFXIV where you'd want to give the tank a couple mins as you're always penalized for doing so. Besides, that's just another way of capping DD progression. If your DDs can't go all out from the get go to shave as many seconds from the fight as possible, what's the point of getting better gear for them? You'd just have to wait even longer for the tank to establish enough of a head start.

its a GAME the has to be a win/lose somewhere wheres the challenge if the fight is predetermined to win whats even the point playing something like that? you hit a monster hard enough it will attack makes sense? if your healing people like crazy the mobs will get mad your not letting it kill your party member. so you let the tank/s get things back in control by making the mob mad again and the DD has to back off or die since there soft targets.

for the people talking about wow stats this aint wow we dont get mass stat gain in every 2 levels and our equip dont become useless after 2 levels. i hope it stays that way. when people start number crunching its wrong anyways. if it did turn into wow there would only be one set of equip for each class for pve & pvp

[LaymanX]

To be honest I've never been a fan of the "I'll take all the hits because all the other classes can't" style of tank in the first place.
How it should work is, instead of tanks focusing on skills that direct all damage to them so the other players have nothing to worry about, they should mostly have skills that mitigate the damage the other players will take when they do get attacked. It's fine if the tank class has some skills that force the enemy to attack them but it shouldn't be based around it.

In other words enmity should essentially be abolished. That was part of the challenge of most of the other FF games: Sometimes party members you don't want to get attacked would get attacked.

[Aceofspades]

To be honest I've never been a fan of the "I'll take all the hits because all the other classes can't" style of tank in the first place.
How it should work is, instead of tanks focusing on skills that direct all damage to them so the other players have nothing to worry about, they should mostly have skills that mitigate the damage the other players will take when they do get attacked. It's fine if the tank class has some skills that force the enemy to attack them but it shouldn't be based around it.

In other words enmity should essentially be abolished. That was part of the challenge of most of the other FF games: Sometimes party members you don't want to get attacked would get attacked.

-.- , soo you want the party to essentially play hot potato with the boss? /facepalm. SOOOOO many things wrong with that idea, but its ok , maybe you can create a game in wich the party aspect supports that Idea, but as far as final fantasy gose , the party aspect as followed a relativly same pattern , you have a healer , a tank and a dd , each plays a vital role, the tank's role is to focus damage to itself, enmity is simply a tool to mesure how much of the mob's focus you have. If there was a way to lock in enmity, about 1/3 of the issues tanks have would go away lol.

[LaymanX]

-.- , soo you want the party to essentially play hot potato with the boss? /facepalm. SOOOOO many things wrong with that idea, but its ok , maybe you can create a game in wich the party aspect supports that Idea, but as far as final fantasy gose , the party aspect as followed a relativly same pattern , you have a healer , a tank and a dd , each plays a vital role, the tank's role is to focus damage to itself, enmity is simply a tool to mesure how much of the mob's focus you have. If there was a way to lock in enmity, about 1/3 of the issues tanks have would go away lol.

No, hot potato implies the players have full control over who the boss is attacking and have to pass it over. I just want bosses to attack indiscriminately. The tank/healer/dps shtick has been done to death. It's really boring never having to worry about getting hit. There should just be a class that has some skills that can direct damage to them, can mitigate damage, and can reduce the attack and magic attack of enemies, and that can be the 'tank' class.