Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[yukikaze_yanagi]

well, keeping hate is part of tanking. In my opinion, you can't have only one of that

[PSxpert2011]

Its as much the dd's job not to rip hate from the tank as it is the tanks job to keep it. Most jobs capable of dishing out damage have access to archer - emnity abilities so it goes without saying knowing when to use them and when to restrain yourself ...

AMEN to that!





hmmm... How do you get Coincounter? My Mnk would really want that! (in a emergency of course) XD

[Alaltus]

AMEN to that!





hmmm... How do you get Coincounter? My Mnk would really want that! (in a emergency of course) XD

Its a boss in Aurum vale he uses an ability called Animal Instinct which resets emnity sorry if that wasnt clear. If a dd weaponskills or casts a spell on him after its used chances are Coincounter will move to its new flashing red target and deliver a 100 ton swing to the parties face even a stray AA can cause this if the tank isnt quick enough.

edit: or was that a joke? lol

[Airget]

You kind of assume that enmity +/- has no influence on pvp where it could effect it in a way you haven't thought of yet.

In FFXI's Ballista, Provoke was used to force a target to only be able to attack/cast magic on you.

XIV has 3 "Hate grabbing" abilites
Provoke/Taunt/Flash

Enmity+=Increases the duration of forcing the target to attack you
Enmity-=Decreases the effect of Provoke/Taunt/Flash

So WHMs who may be the target of a Voke/Taunt/Flash can wear -enmity to decrease the duration of a forced target so that they can get back to curing their allies again.

While a PLD/MNK/WAR can use +enmity to increase their timer when forcing a target to attack them.

[GreyJorildyn]

As others have posted, in the current gear environment, stacking enmity does not force you to choose between keeping hate or taking less damage. In terms of end game comparisons in gear, you must consider best in slot. Right now that's the HDL set and enmity accessories. Combined with a nice sword and waist, one can attain over 250 enmity bonus, adding heaps more enmity per action. That is how we tanks keep up with the DPS classes.

Furthermore both tanks (war and pld) have enmity through damage. Sentinel provides a bonus in enmity to damage dealt for both jobs. Antagonize helps warriors further. Both also have a combo with enmity multipliers and pld's is much larger to off-set some of its shortcomings. All in all it's not perfect but it will likely never be.

Asking to abolish a tank-specific stat just because you don't like it or think it pigeonholes a tank into X gear is short-sighted. You're asking them to change fundamental portions of combat, and one that, if removed (said gear/bonus), would literally make the game unplayable unless further alteration was done.

[Frein]

waist melds hardly give "tons" of hp without double+ melding tier 4 materia (and btw, nobody said it's mandatory melding enmity+ on waist). Personally i got enmity+ and hp on my belt.And equipping both hp and enmity i still manage to reach 4k+ hp on my paladin with food and party bonus

There is nothing weird about double melding tier 4 materia. Also, you're also stuck in the present. If FFXIV is still around two years later, I bet we'll be making decisions between +600 HP and +150 Enmity rather than +120 HP and +30 Enmity. More and more stats will have to be sacrificed at the Enmity altar to keep up.

-using the same game Op speak...they don't do anything. in Wow tanks don't have any enmity+ association with stats. They keep hate only via damage, using often skills which generate more hate than another and augmenting such skills via skill three

This is just wrong. Initially WoW didn't have hate bound to any stats. Abilities like Sunder Armor just didn't scale in any way, and while they worked well for a long time, eventually gear had progressed so much and tanks had lost so much DPS relative to DDs that Blizzard had to do something. That something was, IIRC, to modify all extra hate components by your armour rating.

Asking to abolish a tank-specific stat just because you don't like it or think it pigeonholes a tank into X gear is short-sighted. You're asking them to change fundamental portions of combat, and one that, if removed (said gear/bonus), would literally make the game unplayable unless further alteration was done.

You're right, I don't like it. However, I think SE is heading for the same cliff WoW did specifically because their design was shortsighted and they didn't consider future changes to the game. This is why I proposed a similar solution.

[Aceofspades]

Hmm , I stack enmity on my belt only, and some jewlry. I will do all I can to keep hate but if there is a DD that has no reguard for their own safety , then who am I to not let the boss goble him/her up. Point is, you can keep hate just fine, but if some Ahole dd is trying to make a point then all they will do is ultimatly lessen the amount of dps they put out becuase they are always dead. Hate control is indeed a party issue and not solely on the tank. That being said, using your abilities , and using your abilities WISELY are two completly diffrent things, I would suggest before you build a set , play with your jobs, get to understand just how far you can push the enmity pull on a spirits within, rather then spam abilties, prepair for the fight and pay attention, not just to the enemy but to yourself and your party, I like using parsers where possable because it will give you a detailed list of who is using what and where the enemy attacks durring a fight. If a pt member is not using hate reducing abilities like they should be , and is constantly stealing hate, I would fix THAT problem before turning to your gear for answers.

Knowing your enemy is worthless if you dont know yourself.

[HoolieWho]

I like having a trade-off between hate generation and survivability.

Unrelated, but I wish VIT/DEX or maybe VIT/MND were the primary/secondary damage stats for GLA/PLD instead of STR/MND.

[GreyJorildyn]

I like having a trade-off between hate generation and survivability.

Unrelated, but I wish VIT/DEX or maybe VIT/MND were the primary/secondary damage stats for GLA/PLD instead of STR/MND.

And yet no such trade-off really exists. In fact the game's environment doesn't even allow for a tradeoff as the way to allow a party to function at its maximum ceiling is for the tank to generate the most amount of enmity possible. Without enmity bonuses, dps jobs would not be able to push huge numbers safely. For example, and this is not a plug, I have full HDL and enmity accessories. I can keep hate on Garuda while the BLMs push her to 25% in phase I very quickly. The BLMs in my LS primarily have 2-3 melded top-tier gear and they know their spell rotations incredibly well. They ride the bottom-middle edge of RED enmity throughout the this time, but if my cycle is 100% dead-on, they never pull hate and output massive damage. Other tanks in the LS are just as skilled but do not have full HDL and the same situation is not possible. BLMs have to slow way down to compensate for this.

Hate generation is key to everything tank-wise. Have more enmity allows party to kill faster. Killing faster reduces damage taken over time. Reducing damage over time allows your WHMs to nuke and doing that allows you to kill faster. It is all tied in and survivibility plays almost no pertinent role in the equation. Dodge mechanics on bosses is what brings survivibility into the formula, but its opposition is tank damage output, but hate generation. Can't do damage if running from bosses/avoiding abilities.

In agreement, I too think VIT should be part of the GLA/PLD formula, but I'd take MND somewhere in there I guess.

[Aceofspades]

And yet no such trade-off really exists. In fact the game's environment doesn't even allow for a tradeoff as the way to allow a party to function at its maximum ceiling is for the tank to generate the most amount of enmity possible. Without enmity bonuses, dps jobs would not be able to push huge numbers safely. For example, and this is not a plug, I have full HDL and enmity accessories. I can keep hate on Garuda while the BLMs push her to 25% in phase I very quickly. The BLMs in my LS primarily have 2-3 melded top-tier gear and they know their spell rotations incredibly well. They ride the bottom-middle edge of RED enmity throughout the this time, but if my cycle is 100% dead-on, they never pull hate and output massive damage. Other tanks in the LS are just as skilled but do not have full HDL and the same situation is not possible. BLMs have to slow way down to compensate for this.

Hate generation is key to everything tank-wise. Have more enmity allows party to kill faster. Killing faster reduces damage taken over time. Reducing damage over time allows your WHMs to nuke and doing that allows you to kill faster. It is all tied in and survivibility plays almost no pertinent role in the equation. Dodge mechanics on bosses is what brings survivibility into the formula, but its opposition is tank damage output, but hate generation. Can't do damage if running from bosses/avoiding abilities.

In agreement, I too think VIT should be part of the GLA/PLD formula, but I'd take MND somewhere in there I guess.

LOL, killing faster dose not reduce damage taken over time , it simply reduces damage taken due to the fact that the fight is taking less time all together. And I would have to question , seriously, WHMs being able to nuke more offten due to this set up. IF you are taking more damage then another tank, there is a good chance that you are needing more cures more often wich would NOT free up your WHMs to nuke, and if the duration of the fight is inherintly faster due to the party set up it only feeds to the argument that the whms would not have enough time in the fight to contribute to the DPS.

Even tho its great that you get the speed kills and all, I think that is what is broken about the system. Players are reward greater on knowing how to exploit a broken game vs being actually skilled at their jobs. Before anyone gose off on a tangent let me explain...

The party set up described above dose take considerable skill from the tank to mesh vokes and other hate abilities with surviving a fast pace battle, however, I can not say the same for the blm/s or dds in this set up. The only skill involved in the DPS portion is simply knowing wich combos do the most damage and how to speed cycle through the spells. Personally , anyone who solos thm to 50 or blm , would already know these things. As far as the healer/s go, well kinda simple I would think, cast cures non stop to keep the tank alive and x fingers you dont drag hate. combined with well timed buffs and there shouldnt be much more to healing in the proposed set up. All in all a fairly low need for skill involved, having gear that is geared twards this type of party only increases its effectivness, of course.

Now lets look at what is ,imo, a system that requires skill on all parts. I will call this hypothetical boss, XX, as it dose not exist in the game sense there (enless extream ifrit is xx) is no boss that can currently truly challange skilled fight. when fighting XX, the tank can no longer count on the healers to keep him in fresh supply of hp at all times. He must instead , and quite often dose, use most if not all of his/her mp sustane him/her self. The tank must also know, to a fair degree, the ins and outs of his/her job and how best to sustain hate, reduce damage and generate mp/hp when possable. This would also call for the DDs to know what abilities to spam in order to reduce magic use or generate TP, knowing when to use abilities/spells (timing moves and positioning correctly) doing all this and staying out of dangerously low hp numbers at to not add un due stress the healers. The healers, after all, are already doing all they can to keep buffs up , conserve mp ,and reduce enmity drag. Again, this set up is not nessicary simply because there is not fight that exists that would push the skill level of every aspect of the party. And having gear that supports this party set up ,IE dps gear for the dds and enmity- where possable, mp,mind,vit and enmity- for the healer and def/vit/mind/hp/enmity+ for the tank, would only increase the effectivness of this party set up.

Again, all this is my opnion, but then again, some people would put know how to avoid damage , in the "skill department" I agree it dose take practiced tatics and a working knowledge of the fight to avoid attacks from a boss, I certainly dont agree that avoiding attacks necissarly test the skill of the player for that particular job. But if it works for you, go with it, however in its current state, I have yet to see a fight that challanges the skill level of the entire party, All fights tend to lean on one aspect while going OP on everything else to attain speed kills.