AST proposal: An idea revisited

[Renathras]

Just something Roe said in that big thread going on in General right now got me to thinking, while I've suggested it as an option before, I never made a proposal.

So Roe, this is to you, specifically. Here is what I think would have to happen for this to work. It's why I don't think it makes sense to be the one chosen, but it COULD work if the following changes were made:

1) Objectives:
a) A similar APM to current day WHM.
b) A similar complexity to current day WHM.
c) A similar rotation to current day WHM.
d) A similar healer kit to current day WHM.

I'm not even entirely sure how to do this, mind you, but for a first stab at it, I feel it'd be something like this...

2) Overall kit changes to accomplish this:

a) Cards moved to the GCD. Draw and Play are now GCD actions, not oGCDs. They likely would retain the system the have now in the sense of being "oops, all Balance", or a 1/2/3% damage/crit/DH like BRD songs are. They would, however, need to refund damage in some way. I've considered multiple options, from Draw damaging your active target (if enemy) to there being some kind of "damage Kardia" thing you slap on the boss, but honestly, the simplest solutions are sometimes the best, and the simplest I can think of is - Each time Draw OR Play (both do this) is used, they give some kind of stacking thing (Seals could work for this) which increases the damage of the next Malific by 100%. Stacks 4 times or something. This would effectively make using Cards and then Malific equivalent to using Solace/Rapture and then using Misery...probably with the same kind of optimization, but hey, works for WHM, so we'll go with it.

b) Delayed actions are now outright actions, like as not. So Earthly Star works like Assize. You use the ability and it blows up and does the heal and damage. The only exception would probably be Macrocosmos since WHM has Lilybell and it's effectively the same type of thing here. Horoscope would be converted to be more like Plenary. Or possibly outright removed - Collective might just be strictly better.

c) Either remove Minor Arcana or split it into a different category of buff. I've before suggested Minor Arcana be Bole (mitigation), Ewer (MP regen), probably Arrow (movement speed), and they could be AOEs like the PvP versions. The other three can be flavors of Balance/Speer/Spire that are either like now or all the same or like BRD (1% damage, 2% crit, 3% DH). Also would be GCD and work like the regular Draw/Play do.

d) Reduce the CD on Cards to something like 15 or 20 sec. Still stacks to 2. This allows much more frequent use of the cards to really lean into that feeling and gameplay than the current "stock 3 for burst, use 1 at the min mark in between" which is very meh. This would also make it more equivalent to Lilies, albeit needing to Draw AND Play. Of course, an alternative would be to remove Draw and just each time you Play, it cycles to (or randomly selects) the next card, but whatever.

e) Have Lightspeed also reduce recast by 0.5 sec or something. Basically some kind of way to shoehorn in a PoM-ish effect...though honestly I don't care either way on that. Alternatively, could make it work like Thin Air to only effect the next spell cast so that it's something of a Acceleration/poor-man's Swiftcast for movement. Though with the Play/Draw changes, they're also effective movement tools now.

f) Undraw removed, Redraw probably removed.

g) Astrodyne either removed outright or merged with Lightspeed or something.

h) Probably have Neutral Sect work like Emergency Tactics instead where it influences the next spell cast. Though honestly it staying as it is is probably fine, it's just WHM doesn't have anything like this to compare it to so...I guess question mark tentatively leave it alone for now.

i) Exaltation and Celestial Intersection are parallels to Aquaveil and Divine Benison, so they're probably fine as-is. Likewise, Macrocosmos is close enough to Lilybell we'll go with it for now.

j) Probably trim some abilities, though I'm not entirely sure what. Base Benefic upgrading to Benific II is a no-brainer at this point (same cast time, similar MP efficiency and cost), the stuff removed like Redraw and Undraw, and possibly some other stuff merged like Astrodyne with Light Speed or Divination, Celestial Opposition and Earthly Star (make CO into Assize and be done with it), and so on. AST with about 3-4 less buttons would put it in line with WHM.

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That would probably do the general job of making AST into something for the people that like current WHM.

The reason I never propose this is it would basically be completely reworking and replacing AST (again), alienating all the people that like AST as it is, and then changing all the other three Jobs, which means the people that like AST now would have to swap AND aren't guaranteed to find what they're looking for on the other Jobs anyway.

This is why I say making AST the simple one for the 4 Healers Model is the least desired outcome, though if we were to propose it, something like the above would be how it would need to be done.

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And the sad thing is, the AST rework will probably be designed to make it easier, yet still somehow miss the mark. SEE: Post-6.3 PLD that is easier yet somehow added a button to make PLD's bloat even worse. (Though the PLD change, like the SMN one, has likely been an overall success, both also alienated a lot of people...)

[Shurrikhan]

Still don't see why your "4 Healer Model" requires any of the healers be explicitly low-apm with simple and little decision-making (as opposed to just letting players get by without necessarily optimizing everything, while still having that room for further/excess carry potential for those who want it), but... this honestly makes AST look no worse a fit for that purpose than WHM. (Or likely SGE or SCH. Though, that may just be because... none of them need to thus be limited.)

Initial Concerns:

Draw and Play are now GCD actions, not oGCDs.

Does this mean it effectively requires two full GCDs to deploy a single Card, or are you adding the ability for a hotbar space to act simultaneously as a GCD (Draw) and an oGCD (Play) and/or splitting those buttons?

Note that even taking up a single GCD requires that you at least double the value of the Card just to keep up with current Malefic (which is itself nerfed to make up for Card rDPS being free/bonus). For Cards to compete with a compensatory-buffed Malefic when each Card takes two GCDs to deploy, you'd need around 5x their power.

Otherwise, this seems... fine?

Reduce the CD on Cards to something like 15 or 20 sec. Still stacks to 2.

Likewise, fine.

Delayed actions are now outright actions, like as not. So Earthly Star works like Assize.

Why would that be necessary? Was this second brain cell just too much for that niche in the 4-Healer Model?

Either remove Minor Arcana or split it into a different category of buff.

Likewise, why would this be necessary? Though, you also seem to be mixing the Major and Minor Arcana here??

I've before suggested Minor Arcana be Bole (mitigation), Ewer (MP regen), probably Arrow (movement speed)

If you want to split the Draw pile in half, with generic damage buffs in the first and situational buffs in the second, that actually sounds fine... but I'm still not sure what that would have to do with Minor Arcana (Lady and Lord), and having removed Redraw, you've removed almost all agency from its core gimmick.


Broader Concerns:

Though honestly it staying as it is is probably fine, it's just WHM doesn't have anything like this to compare it to so...

Why does making AST even the "As simple and straightforward as is possible (while still at least slightly distinguishable from comatose)" niche job in your model... demand that it be WHM?

Whatever point your test would otherwise potentially have seems removed by this circuitous logic. "WHM must be the simple job because I need a simple job because a simple job is necessary, and no other job can be the simple job because they can't be WHM enough"? There's nothing about WHM's thematic components or any other job's that demands that they be simple, nor is there any demand that simplicity can only come in the form WHM currently presents.

That would probably do the general job of making AST into something for the people that like current WHM.

If the only thing they significantly like about WHM is its low APM, rather than its aesthetic, Misery, its direct damage options, etc... Which, doesn't seem terribly likely.

[ForsakenRoe]

Like the Realm Reborn you appear to have dropped the moon on the class in an attempt to reshape it into something entirely unlike what it was originally intended to be

Shurrikhan hits most of the points but I'll respond (since this appears to be a callout post of sorts):

1: why does any job that is 'the one exempted from change' under the 4 healer model have to be forced into the WHM hole regardless of shape? Half of the upcoming changes amount to 'here is an AST tool, how can we make it functionally as close as possible to a WHM analogue skill'. I would agree that AST is probably the least fitting job for this kind of thinking. My asking 'why not AST' was to try and understand what it is about jobs and their respective sources of complexity that you take issue with. Now I think I understand. It seems to be 'everything'. AST has a damage rotation that matches what you want (one nuke, one DOT 30s long) but that would not count, because it has cards too

2a: As Shurri says, having both on the GCD would be incredibly weird and scuffed. Auto-Drawing the next card as a trait, and having just Play on the GCD would be less scuffed, I'd assume. It'd slow the class down to a crawl but I suppose that's the point. Shoutout to the shoehorned Misery comparison, instead of tuning the cards to be a gain despite costing a GCD to play, a very SE-approved design choice

2b: As above, when it comes to complexity it seems 'everything' is the issue. You know you can just detonate Star early and it's stronger than a Rapture still? Horoscope also actually does work kinda like Plenary. Just, the old one from Stormblood. The one that was generally panned so it got reworked, yeh that one. I wouldn't complain if Horoscope got removed/folded into one of the THREE other 60s AST has tbh but that's another topic

2c: The Bole, Ewer and Spire are Major Arcana. That's not even gameplay, that's lore. A change like this one would require them to rewrite the lore and change the AST quests (again)

2d: Having the cards be more often would require that their potencies be reduced to compensate. We get one every 30s, and it's 6%. Reducing it to 15 or 20 would require dropping their effects to 3% and 4% respectively. We already see complaints about the cards feeling bad because their effects are so 'invisible without a parser', this goes in the wrong direction. I think it'd be better to have them be less often (say, 1min), maybe remove the charges, and bump it's potency so it has some oomph. Then to keep the APM of the class, make Minor Arcana actually interesting and available very often (I'd say 15s, so I assume you'd go for 30s or so for the purposes of this)

2e: Did it need POM? Rather than any other potential selfbuff action you could have come up with, you went with 'the one WHM has'? I get that this is 'if AST was like WHM' but you're going for 'if AST was literally WHM with a VFX mod applied'

2f: Agency removed, RNG mitigation removed, the aesthetic of the job is not 'it reads fate', it's 'it bends fate'

2g: Probably the only thing on here that I'll agree with, and not because it's a good idea, it's just that Astrodyne is THAT bad

2h: Neutral Sect shows how behind the times WHM's design actually is. It's not often that NS is 'useful', but the times where it is, it absolutely blows Temperance out of the water IMO. It's a CD that, for 20s every 2mins, allows the AST to say 'I do not vibe with the Pure/Barrier split' and just do both at the same time. In situations like Harrowing Hell, that's ridiculous power. Plus, applying a shield at the end of the duration allows for the overall 'coverage' to be anywhere from 20s to 50s, depending when the next damage comes in. Temperance lasts 5s longer than it claims, but if a raidwide happens 30s after the one you first popped NS/Temp for, only NS is gonna be able to have it's effect reach to that second raidwide

2i: Those skills are probably fine to leave as is, yes. As much as I harp on Exaltation/Protraction/Aquaveil for feeling 'bloaty', Exaltation is just better than Aquaveil. 5% versus 500p heal after the buff falls off, I'll take the auto-heal. 500's quite a lot

2j: Some of these make some sense, some make absolutely none. Like CO/Star. You might not have noticed, but AST's 'lilies' ARE Star, COpp and CU/Horoscope. Ration them out equally across their 1min CD, and you have one per 20s.

SE will absolutely 100% miss the mark on the AST changes with the rework.

TLDR review: if this is 'A Job Reborn', wake me up when the Heavensward equivalent gets released

Why does making AST even the "As simple and straightforward as is possible (while still at least slightly distinguishable from comatose)" niche job in your model... demand that it be WHM?

Whatever point your test would otherwise potentially have seems removed by this circuitous logic. "WHM must be the simple job because I need a simple job because a simple job is necessary, and no other job can be the simple job because they can't be WHM enough"? There's nothing about WHM's thematic components or any other job's that demands that they be simple, nor is there any demand that simplicity can only come in the form WHM currently presents.

I wonder, was WHM the 'simple job' in 6.0 by Ren's standards?

[ASkellington]

1) Objectives:
a) A similar APM to current day WHM.
b) A similar complexity to current day WHM.
c) A similar rotation to current day WHM.
d) A similar healer kit to current day WHM.

You can achieve this much simpler than what you have here.

• Remove Trashtrodyne

This is the source of the high APM on AST. Remove this, there's no reason to rush cards out so you have it for the opener. This also means a removal of the seals system.

• Remove a charge of Draw
• Remove Celestial Intersection
• Remove Collective Unconciousness
• Remove Undraw
• Remove Horoscope

This is mostly to reduce the extra oGCDs AST has in comparison.

WHM does have some oGCDs, may stand to have a bit more, but it doesn't need to be fully on the GCD model and I don't think AST needs to be either.

I chose to remove CI over Exal because Exaltation is a better thematic Divine Bension.
I chose to remove CU for no reason other than its a channeled ability. You can move Celestial Opposition here instead.

Horoscope I don't think needs to be removed since to use the bigger heal you need to use a GCD anyway... But if we're going to instead turn it into a GCD... I mean Macrocosmos is right there just reduce the recast timer then.

• CO becomes a GCD and costs mana. Recast timer can stay at 60s.
  
• Earthly Star I don't know what to do with honestly. It doesn't need to be changed (aside from its radius reduction ffs SE).
  
• Minor Arcana... Remove it. I don't see a way of consolidating it.
  
• Cards remain unchanged.
  
• Remove a charge of Essential Dignity. I think its recharge timer is fine. I'd change what level you get it at, but not much else.

Perposed changes:

• Neutral Sect impacts more of AST's kit - specifically with CO/CU, Exalt.

In the case of CO, like Nocturnal Sect did previously it shields.
With CU I would split the mitigation and HoT. Under Neutral you would have both. Without it, just the mitigation.
Exaltation would be closer to Divine Bension in giving an actual shield and not mitigation. When consumed or Exaltation ends it applies a heal equal to the total shield when it is first applied.

If instead we'd rather remove Neutral that is an option.

• Synastry now works with Exaltation, A. Benefic, and Essential Dignity.

This is for more kit cohesion. Personally if we're trying to reduce complexity with AST you'd want to remove Synastry all together. But you can also not make this change and it would be fine.

Because Lightspeed is a thing...

• Increase cast times from 1.5 to 2s.

Cards are still on the oGCD. Lightspeed can be used for movement or for heavy healing instances since its now no longer required for Astrodyne/Divination windows. Jury's out on having 2 charges or not

[Shurrikhan]

You can achieve this much simpler than what you have here.

• Remove Trashtrodyne

This is the source of the high APM on AST. Remove this, there's no reason to rush cards out so you have it for the opener. This also means a removal of the seals system.

Technically, if not for your also having removed the second charge from Draw, you'd still rush Cards out so that, far more importantly, they're up for their recipients' openers, stacking as tightly as is possible with Divination.

Removing Astrodyne also removes roughly half the optimization available to cards, since you're not returning any of the old Card model here to replace Seal, nor returning Divination to its original form.

Removing the second charge on Cards reduces the busyness of AST, but also takes away yet more of its otherwise available optimization. Hrmm.

I guess I just have to ask, are some these suggestions in emulation of reducing the job's skill ceiling per the original Ren goal, or are they all honest preferences?

[ASkellington]

Technically, if not for your also having removed the second charge from Draw, you'd still rush Cards out so that, far more importantly, they're up for their recipients' openers, stacking as tightly as is possible with Divination.

Removing Astrodyne also removes roughly half the optimization available to cards, since you're not returning any of the old Card model here to replace Seal, nor returning Divination to its original form.

Removing the second charge on Cards reduces the busyness of AST, but also takes away yet more of its otherwise available optimization. Hrmm.

I guess I just have to ask, are some these suggestions in emulation of reducing the job's skill ceiling per the original Ren goal, or are they all honest preferences?

The only change I listed here as an actual preference is Synastry's change.

Actual changes I'd like to see on AST aren't listed here.

[Mimilu]

No thank you, I personally prefer AST's higher APM gameplay compared to WHM's. （*´▽｀*）
I like having cards to weave between GCD.
I like the delayed actions you can manually set off.
You did a whole thread asking AST players why they like the job and this is what you got from it? Or did you just not care? If you want a healer like WHM, just play WHM. Don't steamroll other jobs. ･:*+.\(( °ω° ))/.:+
The only things I'll agree with you is we don't need Minor Arcana and Astrodyne in their current states. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[ForsakenRoe]

You did a whole thread asking AST players why they like the job and this is what you got from it?

Chances are it's my fault somehow

[Connor]

I don’t think the idea of GCD Cards is bad overall, it’s more just that it’s not logistically possible lol.

Like, I’d be happy if cards were like 4X-5X times the potency to account for lost dps, but I don’t think the devs would see it that way lol. Plus it’d be a nightmare to balance, since they’d have to account for the fact that dps is fairly variable, so they’d have to account for the contribution based on what it would add to each job individually (i.e, a Samurai would get more damage out of it than a Bard or Dancer).

It’s a fun idea but sadly wouldn’t work out. That said, I would like to see cards be more than just ‘something you slot between Malefic casts’. I feel like they should central to how it plays, even if it’s difficult for that concept to actually manifest in practice lol.

[IDontPetLalas]

I could see that there could be some leeway for (a), other than that I would say why not just play WHM? These objectives (below) don't describe why I selected AST, or those that I would want implemented in future- I would be more aligned with the changes to astrodyne, for example, card potency changes, or even consolidation to some OGCD heals.
A) similar APM to current day WHM.
b) A similar complexity to current day WHM.
c) A similar rotation to current day WHM.
d) A similar healer kit to current day WHM.