Character Growth: Leveling is part of RPGs

[Ingolf]

If leveling is a grind fest then I'd rather them leave it out of the game.

If they can make leveling fun then they should make it fun long lasting content. As it stands, leveling is inbetween.

[Jeronlmo]

Going to repeat this same thing again, because people keep repeating the dumb poll.

Kinda late in this thread i guess, it was the first responce, but they linked this http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/46535 .

But if you would read down just a bit... like the next few lines of text.

"50% of you thought the pace of leveling was just about right, while 20% felt it was too fast. And then there was the 10% who had more to say on the matter.
For most MMOs, you might expect around 60-70% of players to respond with “too slow”, but as the current leveling speed for FFXIV is intentionally set at a higher pace, I’m fairly satisfied with these results."

If nothing else, he admits its set at a higher pace than normal.

[Pnight]

lol

The only reason you could ever say XI's pace was perfect because you always had something to do was because it: 1) required specific party combinations 2) was ridiculously slow because of pDIF, level correction and lack of any decent gear

Spending all your time LFG and soloing quests =/= good game design, perfect pace
Spending your time shouting or needing to do missions no one wants to help on/has already passed =/= good game design, perfect pace
Weeks on end not accomplishing anything, standing in Jeuno, staring at a moogle =/= good game design, perfect pace

Any comparisons to XI being good had better be limited to story, scenery, or nostalgia because the bulk of what that game brought to the table was terribly incorporated. The only reason I started playing again after the WoTG fiasco was Abyssea, the one good thing XI did (outside of story, scenery, or nostalgia)

The enmity system, combat system, changing gear (leading to sidegrade gear updates (lazy development), massive inventory issues, macro pieces for one ability), damage formulas, back and forth nerf/buff/nerf balancing -> most jobs become useless for majority of events (eg, too many jobs), RNG drop rate system, open world HNM's on 24-72h respawns, the teleporter to Kirin, etc. I, you, anyone could go on with all of the terrible things about that game. Some people kept on despite it, some people didn't, it was terrible regardless.

Oh, and the fact that we have to waste our own time figuring out formulas for everything or what Treasure Hunter actually does is pretty lame as well. Most developers understand that people are playing a game, and want to know how x/y/z effects their character. FFXI? Working as intended.

= Loves Instant Gratification

Exclude waiting time and ffxi had perfect leveling speed xp/hr. I'm not so opposed to the leveling speed in ffxiv. Perfect leveling speed for me would be around 4-6 weeks consistent play 3-4 hrs per day. My biggest problem with ffxiv leveling is the style, it's ugly, sloppy, lazy and boring. I much prefer 1 mob which needs attention and skill to kill (if that means more xp/mob fine), not attack 15 mobs half asleep... swing once.. blm nuke.. grab 15 more mob style.

[Felis]

The main problem are the levels 40-50. If SE can reduce the exp you can earn in this levels or increase the exp you need to level up, it would be ok. The last 10 levels should always be longer than the first 20 levels, not the other way.

[Seif]

People only complain the length when it's delivered in a boring way.

You don't hear people complaining about the length of Xenoblades Chronicles for example.

You can never have enough of a good thing and the only problem now is that the actions we're doing in the game just aren't that fun.

I for one want to be able to progress in this game for years to come but at the same time I understand why people are complaining about this. Cutting the game shorter doesn't make it better. I'd rather see them addressing the problem with a better battle system more story content actually a LOT more and better made story content in all areas of the game.

Long story short. Don't stop working on the game and don't think cutting it shorter will distract from the fact that these people just don't care for a massive portion of your current product.

[Hyrist]

On these forums, maybe. Ingame? Who knows.

Other way around. Majority of poll voters were not forum members. So it may very well be the majority in both cases. Difficult to tell as SE did not release total game population numbers nor total poll numbers.

The thread-locking didn't have much to do with the topic but with the attitude of several people unable to handle others expressing a different opinion in a calm and objective way.

I'd like to agree, but experience has lead me to believe that this is more a mannism of a minority who cannot bear having their opinions regulated to a single thread. They want attention on the issue even though their point of view could be seen as damaging to the majority.

I agree. It still is a point worth keeping in mind though.

To keep in mind yes. But the root problem, as I stated before, isn't leveling. Leveling itself is merely a transition, and the slower it is without substantial content to support it, the worse of an experience it is. Thus a grind.

But what people who are pro-slower leveling are neglecting one major problem, development wise, with their argument.

There is a catch-22 problem involved with creating low-level content. I'll help analyze this now so people can understand that's going on.

There are two major types of of low level content. Repeatable and Non-repeatable.

Repeatable low-level content, suffers two primary problems that cannot easily be addressed without worsening one the other. The first is the feeling of grind. Any repeated action will eventually be boring, so the longer you use the content, the less it feels worth.

Secondary and contary to this is dead content. Once you outlevel the range, that content loses play use. Compare to creating an endgame dungeon which can be designed for long term goals, repatable leveling quest end up having no long-term use or goals for them. Only way to counter that is to make difficulty scaling for levels, which in turn makes it more of a grind.

Idealy, scaling content that has different goals, monster placement, and loot could counter both of these issues, and SE has stated that this will actually happen in their dungeons ('Normal' vs 'Hardmode' runs.)

The other type of Quest, Non-Repeatable, have to have worthwhile goals to be attractive in the immediate term, such as good gear yeild, decent story, exp rewards, etc. You really can't do that without speeding up the process of leveling we already have - and the same thing with doing worthwhile repeatables.

Leveling is going to speed up not because of a lack of content, but rather because content, and therefore rewards, are going to be more plentiful. You will be doing more, and therefore be getting more back for it. The only way to counteract this is to increase the curve, which would be pointless when the level cap goes up anyways, as that will already extend the curve exponentially.

They want players to level multiple jobs and classes. In order to do this, they're expediting the process of leveling by meeting our other requests for more content.

While I am not in agreement with the potential consequence of loss of character and player identity by over-encouragement of multiple leveled jobs. I do see the purpose for it. It's just my hope that in the release of new jobs, players can settle into an individual character identity while still being variable in the types of roles they can fill - but that is another discussion entirely.


To summarize - players wanted more low level content. So they're more one-off quests and storylines to accompany that.

They also want to get people involved in dungeons early adn throughout, but not done at the waste of created content. So they created tiered difficulty instances and dungeons.

The consequence of this is more content to level with, and as a result, faster leveling all around as there are multiple sources to level from that are impossible to tone down without making one of these elements not worthwhile to do on their own.

Therefore, leveling will be faster, but we're likely not going to care as content will carry us up, rather than flat out grinding. What will matter instead is that there is enough endgame content to sustain the playerbase at the end of the level rise. Which, between Legatus, Dungeons, Primal Fights, Primal Hunts, Relic Weapons and PVP, I'd say they've got a good starting point for 2.0.

People are going to still argue, however, as they view portions of this game in isolation from each other, with little to no information to go on. The augments will change once everyone is in the beta.

[Aceofspades]

Agreed. Not too sure if XI was bareable because of content between LVLing or if it was the action of LVLing itself. Pretty sure it was the action of LVLing tbh. When it takes, on avg., a week for somone to get from 10-20 , hitting 20 was kinda a mile stone , not to mention the actual mile stones in the game, for instance, traveling to Jueno for the first time on your own with no choco, getting your choco in jueno, getting your airship pass to lvl past 35, ect , ect. Fact is there was more to celibrate in XI BECAUSE it was 10x more difficult. Maybe its a new generation of gamer, or just a layzier version of the same generation. honestly I dont know and dont care. Cant blame SE for accomidating these gamers as they bring in the money that keeps the game going , but certainly there is a way to balance out casual content and endgame content, Used to be that the LVLs were the great dividers and casual gamers accepted the fact that they would not see endgame content untill they achived such lvls. Just pray that Yoshi P realizes that his hard core gamers need ensentives to stay , making all the content easly atainable simply becuase of :: on the forums is not a good reason to do so. If you want endgame content and you are a casual gamer, would certainly be a hoo of you to understand that said content shouldnt just be handed to you with a weekends worth of work, or grind or questing. You should be forced to earn it as should anyone who decideds they want endgame content. This of course is my own opinion in wich I am sure somone dis agrees.

Look at the alternative, it either that or use "endgame content" in a recycled fasion that just eventually blands said content to the point of being unintersing alltogether.

[Hyrist]

It's not so much about cutting the game shorter as it is about extending the game in the right places. The leveling process is great for single players as it progresses with the story. MMO's just don't work that way. You play through the story and it ends, and then you either have to spread out the story to the point where you're only getting chunks of it between grinding (FFXI was a grind. If you loved it, fine, but it was masochistic for many, especially those who wanted to play their own way or with their friends who may not have played the most popular jobs. Seriously, trying getting a RDM and WHM together in a party past CoP era.)

This era of gaming cannot be sustained by prolonging the content. You've got to fill in the gaps. If you do fill in the gaps, leveling is going to be comparatively faster.

Right now, Leves were the primary source of leveling, you add a good number of quests and storyline quests to that and of course your leveling pace is going to go up. The point is making content that supports it throughout.

The biggest crux of the matter is top-heavy populations. The slower you make leveling, the more that becomes a problem. Suddenly you are either being handheld through party content by your high level friends or you're stuck feeing alone grinding up to get the levels you need to play at endgame with the rest of your buddies.

There's simply no reason to go back and help as the rewards won't assist endgame goals at all, and any loot drops lose effectiveness as you level anyways. So, better to have a richer endgame and an expedient path to it. Plenty of other ways of getting your grind-feels, and plenty of jobs to level to get your feeling of long term progression.

Leveling one class too slow for you? Go for your Paragon's crown. Or go level a craft or 3 to 50, believe me, you won't be complaining about leveling too fast once you step out of the bubble of combat classes.

[darkstarpoet1]

Leveling one class too slow for you? Go for your Paragon's crown. Or go level a craft or 3 to 50, believe me, you won't be complaining about leveling too fast once you step out of the bubble of combat classes.

i have every class capped and have since november or somewhere around there and i say leveling is wayyyyyyy too fast. i guess you were wrong.

[Churchill]

= Loves Instant Gratification

Exclude waiting time and ffxi had perfect leveling speed xp/hr. I'm not so opposed to the leveling speed in ffxiv. Perfect leveling speed for me would be around 4-6 weeks consistent play 3-4 hrs per day. My biggest problem with ffxiv leveling is the style, it's ugly, sloppy, lazy and boring. I much prefer 1 mob which needs attention and skill to kill (if that means more xp/mob fine), not attack 15 mobs half asleep... swing once.. blm nuke.. grab 15 more mob style.

I never accomplished anything in XI, it was too hard for me.