2 tanks and 4 dps can beat P9?

[BRVV]

Again what are you even saying

Read the post i responded to and the OP first

[Supersnow845]

Read the post i responded to and the OP first

Yes and you still haven’t told me how people being decent enough at their job to abuse the tanks overpowered self regen and ignore the healer role will somehow create a meta of only brining meta jobs

The only reason this is even possible is because square is too scared to give healers any challenge or responsibility and an enrage timer in normal to dryer this sort of stuff is totally out of the question apparently

[BRVV]

I just resent the idea that it would be normal, as in desired, that the best players omit healers

[Aravell]

3/5 ULTIMATES being cleared with no healers

Where do you guys keep getting 3/5 from? UCoB was cleared with 8 tanks, TOP was cleared with only tanks and DPS, the other 3 all had at least 1 healer.

For the record, I'm not saying to not complain or that the healer situation isn't bad, I'm just saying to stop lumping in decent fights with badly designed ones. TOP is the issue as it's the only ultimate that has been cleared with no healers on patch. We should be criticising the design that's bad, not everything adjacent to it too. UCoB has some bite still, they had to do with 8 tanks because damage is still high enough and tank healing is still low enough that DPS jobs will die at certain points. DSR also has some high damage choke points, will tank and DPS healing even cover Akh Morn's Edge in p7 where everyone is spread into their own towers? TOP's design is the main problem, mechanics in that fight aren't designed to kill you with damage if you do them right, tank healing is only one part of the issue here.

[Payotz]

I bet the only reason DSR hasn't been cleared without healers is the Intermission and keeping Haur alive. If it was removed, it likely would have been cleared with no healers.

I think it's more so because of Double Dragons. The DD phase is the only phase of any fight where tanks actually take huge amounts of auto attack damage to the point where cooldowns are actually really tight. Probably one of the most enjoyable phases in the game cause it forces you to lose uptime and not mindlessly burst on a single target, healers actually have to heal and tanks actually have to properly mitigate. Best design philosophy just because it's not afraid to fuck your rotation and muscle memory up.

Tangent but if they deleted every single Thordin phase and just replaced it with phases that has the same design principle as DD, DSR would probably be the best Ultimate.

[Ianmaru]

what if, the two ppl who 'left the fight' early on the 8man casual raid were both dps, and then the 6 remaining ppl still cleared the duty? how would ppl feel about that? would it make you feel that DPS is unneeded to an extent?

i think a casual duty getting cleared while the dps is gone the whole fight is a common scenario. now another question is: why do ppl get bothered when a casual duty is cleared without healer, but not so much when its cleared without dps?

now what if the tanks are the one thats gone? on a lvl 90 dungeon last boss just now, the tank in my party gets DC the moment the boss were pulled, so only 3 of us fought the boss and we killed it anyway.

see, i think in casual content the duty is designed to be clearable even when some of the party members are gone, regardless the role.
when the dps is missing, the party's ability to deal damage is diminished, thus the boss takes longer to die, and the tanks & healers would have to work harder to make damage
when the tank is missing, the party's ability to control the incoming damage is diminished, thus the boss' AA & TB go to someone with low defense, and the dps & healers would have to work harder to survive
when the healer is missing, the party's ability to heal is diminished, thus the whole party is in higher risk to wipe, and the tanks & DPS would have to work harder to recover their health.
so when some certain role is missing, the party is crippled in a way, but would still be able to clear a casual content if the remaining party members are competent enough to carry the weight of the missing members.

I personally think that that's a good equality among the roles, since one role is not supposed to feel more important than the others.
and in the hardcore content, it's clearly shown how every role is just as important as the other, by having DPS check, healing check, & continuous TBs.

OK now before you ask, 'So what's the point of having roles?'
Well, I personally think that roles are not very important. The casual content would do just fine without having the holy trinity of tank-dps-healer. but it is helpful for the very casual player who don't really know how to play the game well, since having the normal party composition does make the content easier. For most hardcore contents, the roles matters a lot more though.

[Absimiliard]

I feel like the trinity has grown stale to begin with. Being beholden to other players for your own survival works well in some ways, but it does begin to grate after a while. It's why more games have begun turning toward personal responsibility, by which I mean everyone is given all the tools they need to stay alive. Whether or not they can stay alive is then entirely up to them. If you die? Well, you've got nobody else to blame. Git gud.

I wouldn't mind seeing the devs begin adding more healing tools to DPS (and DRK, since it has all the self-sustain of a quadriplegic toddler), more DPS tools to healers and (to a lesser degree) tanks, and repurposing healers in particular as support by giving them extra buffs and debuffs and access to some extremely potent emergency healing for tanks/DPS that do screw up.

[ASkellington]

see, i think in casual content the duty is designed to be clearable even when some of the party members are gone, regardless the role.
when the dps is missing, the party's ability to deal damage is diminished, thus the boss takes longer to die, and the tanks & healers would have to work harder to make damage
when the tank is missing, the party's ability to control the incoming damage is diminished, thus the boss' AA & TB go to someone with low defense, and the dps & healers would have to work harder to survive
when the healer is missing, the party's ability to heal is diminished, thus the whole party is in higher risk to wipe, and the tanks & DPS would have to work harder to recover their health.
so when some certain role is missing, the party is crippled in a way, but is still able to clear casual content.

I personally think that that's a good equality among the roles, since one role is not supposed to feel more important than the others.
and in the hardcore content, it's clearly shown how every role is just as important as the other, by having DPS check, healing check, & continuous TBs.

Because we're not talking about a dungeon. We're talking about a raid.

We're not talking about missing party members. We're talking about straight up replacing a role in content because said content barely has anything for said role to do that the remaining 2 can't do without them.

Bosses in EW dungeons can be done without a tank yes. Raid bosses? Unless you want SGE and SCH to fully commit to using their GCDs constantly to attempt to keep a DPS alive (probably a DRG/RPR because after Fending Gear Maiming has the most mitigations correct?) you probably can't do them without a tank. There are mechanics in place for a tank's requirement. There are no mechanics in place for a healer's requirement.

Now I would bring up the double standard of SE fixing it so when Titan Egi was a thing it could no longer tank. But I wasn't around then, and I don't know first hand if it was possible or not.

So I'll just say this: I don't think its good quality for a holy trinity game (one that promotes tank/healer/dps) to make content casual or no that does not have mechanics for part of the trinity to shine in. Even more so when it is a raid - a piece of content where players are able to group up and accomplish a task.

And I'll also say that is very disheartening to hear that "no, healing requirements are so pitifully low your favorite role to play (healer) is not needed in X content".

Also Hardcore content has NOT shown how every role is important. As said hardcore content was cleared without 2 healers, without a single healer, and some of them on release.

[Absimiliard]

(probably a DRG/RPR because after Fending Gear Maiming has the most mitigations correct?)

Maiming has the most passive mitigation after fending, but those jobs don't necessarily have the best mitigation tools after tanks. They seem tougher because they won't get hurt as badly when taking things straight to the face, but some of the other DPS do have circumstantially decent mitigation due to their job tools. Granted, RPR is by no means a slouch in this area. RPR's shield is quite good if used appropriately. DRG, on the other hand, is basically just going to be taking everything raw.

Now I would bring up the double standard of SE fixing it so when Titan Egi was a thing it could no longer tank. But I wasn't around then, and I don't know first hand if it was possible or not.

It could tank, yeah. It wouldn't be as durable as an actual tank, but you could absolutely save a raid just by swiftcasting your Titan-egi after the tanks have gone down. Saw it happen many times back in the day. Taking that away from SMN was pretty crappy.

[Eraden]

I feel like the trinity has grown stale to begin with. Being beholden to other players for your own survival works well in some ways, but it does begin to grate after a while. It's why more games have begun turning toward personal responsibility, by which I mean everyone is given all the tools they need to stay alive. Whether or not they can stay alive is then entirely up to them. If you die? Well, you've got nobody else to blame. Git gud.

I wouldn't mind seeing the devs begin adding more healing tools to DPS (and DRK, since it has all the self-sustain of a quadriplegic toddler), more DPS tools to healers and (to a lesser degree) tanks, and repurposing healers in particular as support by giving them extra buffs and debuffs and access to some extremely potent emergency healing for tanks/DPS that do screw up.

Know whats get when remove Trinity? Get GW2, where every big fight is just one big formless blob. All sense of complexity thrown out window. Is what Cassius Rex want?