2 tanks and 4 dps can beat P9?

[Absimiliard]

Know whats get when remove Trinity? Get GW2, where every big fight is just one big formless blob. All sense of complexity thrown out window. Is what Cassius Rex want?

And what about games without the trinity where complexity wasn't sacrificed? Because those are a thing. You don't need the trinity to make your fights complex. If anything, forcing your players to be directly responsible for their own survival opens the way to increasing the complexity of your fights. It does however mean players who can't or won't improve aren't likely to progress as far as they would in a game still reliant upon the trinity.

[Eraden]

And what about games without the trinity where complexity wasn't sacrificed? Because those are a thing. You don't need the trinity to make your fights complex. If anything, forcing your players to be directly responsible for their own survival opens the way to increasing the complexity of your fights. It does however mean players who can't or won't improve aren't likely to progress as far as they would in a game still reliant upon the trinity.

If done rights, Trinity always ADDS additional layer complexity.

[Ianmaru]

Because we're not talking about a dungeon. We're talking about a raid.

We're not talking about missing party members. We're talking about straight up replacing a role in content because said content barely has anything for said role to do that the remaining 2 can't do without them.

Bosses in EW dungeons can be done without a tank yes. Raid bosses? Unless you want SGE and SCH to fully commit to using their GCDs constantly to attempt to keep a DPS alive (probably a DRG/RPR because after Fending Gear Maiming has the most mitigations correct?) you probably can't do them without a tank. There are mechanics in place for a tank's requirement. There are no mechanics in place for a healer's requirement.

Now I would bring up the double standard of SE fixing it so when Titan Egi was a thing it could no longer tank. But I wasn't around then, and I don't know first hand if it was possible or not.

So I'll just say this: I don't think its good quality for a holy trinity game (one that promotes tank/healer/dps) to make content casual or no that does not have mechanics for part of the trinity to shine in. Even more so when it is a raid - a piece of content where players are able to group up and accomplish a task.

And I'll also say that is very disheartening to hear that "no, healing requirements are so pitifully low your favorite role to play (healer) is not needed in X content".

Also Hardcore content has NOT shown how every role is important. As said hardcore content was cleared without 2 healers, without a single healer, and some of them on release.

Oh I was talking about casual content in general, regardless raid or dungeon. Well I wanted to stick with the topic of raid, but I never really have a firsthand experience where the tank is missing the whole fight, and I only have the experience in boss dungeon thus I mentioned that one. Honestly I really would like to see how a party of 6 without tanks clear a casual raid. If the 6 ppl are competent enough to carry the missing tank weights, I think it should be doable. might make the healers raise a lot & throw GCD heals a lot though, but should still be doable.

Regarding the holy trinity, I personally think that roles are not very important. The casual content would do just fine without having the holy trinity of tank-dps-healer. but it is helpful for the very casual player who don't really know how to play the game well, since having the normal party composition does make the content easier. For most hardcore contents, the roles matters a lot more though.

Talking about some of the hardcore contents that can be cleared without healers, well maybe those ones need some balancing fix. the game is not perfect, but I think the way 2 tanks & 4 DPS manage to clear a casual raid provided those 6 are skilled enough, is nothing to be concerned about.

[Gullis]

what if, the two ppl who 'left the fight' early on the 8man casual raid were both dps, and then the 6 remaining ppl still cleared the duty? how would ppl feel about that? would it make you feel that DPS is unneeded to an extent?

i think a casual duty getting cleared while the dps is gone the whole fight is a common scenario. now another question is: why do ppl get bothered when a casual duty is cleared without healer, but not so much when its cleared without dps?

now what if the tanks are the one thats gone? on a lvl 90 dungeon last boss just now, the tank in my party gets DC the moment the boss were pulled, so only 3 of us fought the boss and we killed it anyway.

see, i think in casual content the duty is designed to be clearable even when some of the party members are gone, regardless the role.
when the dps is missing, the party's ability to deal damage is diminished, thus the boss takes longer to die, and the tanks & healers would have to work harder to make damage
when the tank is missing, the party's ability to control the incoming damage is diminished, thus the boss' AA & TB go to someone with low defense, and the dps & healers would have to work harder to survive
when the healer is missing, the party's ability to heal is diminished, thus the whole party is in higher risk to wipe, and the tanks & DPS would have to work harder to recover their health.
so when some certain role is missing, the party is crippled in a way, but would still be able to clear a casual content if the remaining party members are competent enough to carry the weight of the missing members.

I personally think that that's a good equality among the roles, since one role is not supposed to feel more important than the others.
and in the hardcore content, it's clearly shown how every role is just as important as the other, by having DPS check, healing check, & continuous TBs.

OK now before you ask, 'So what's the point of having roles?'
Well, I personally think that roles are not very important. The casual content would do just fine without having the holy trinity of tank-dps-healer. but it is helpful for the very casual player who don't really know how to play the game well, since having the normal party composition does make the content easier. For most hardcore contents, the roles matters a lot more though.

Personally, the problem with healers unlike dps and tanks, is that their entire kits are mostly healing/shield spells, so when you never have to use said kit, and are left spamming 1 button, the feeling of uselessness is way eaiser to notice. If healers had more of a dps rotation, and took more of a support role, I think we would see way less complaining about this

[LilimoLimomo]

what if, the two ppl who 'left the fight' early on the 8man casual raid were both dps, and then the 6 remaining ppl still cleared the duty? how would ppl feel about that? would it make you feel that DPS is unneeded to an extent?

There are 3 primary aspects that makes these situations meaningfully different:

• Damage determines when a fight is completed, healing determines if a fight is completed*
• DPS roles have lower responsibility than Healers
• DPS roles always has a job to do, while the job Healers have to do is determined by the encounter

Damage determines when a fight is completed, healing determines if a fight is completed*

In a fight without enrage, outgoing damage only determines when a fight is completed, not if. Because as long as you're alive, every class is capable of doing at least a tiny amount of damage, and over time even a mild amount of DPS will eventually lead to the death of the boss. However, you cannot take this same approach to healing, because below a certain rate of healing your group dies and you literally fail.

DPS roles have lower responsibility than Healers

Because of the previous point, DPS roles have a lower level of responsibility than Healers. If a DPS role slips up their rotation or even dies, their reduced DPS does not put the party at risk.* Reduced healing can put the party at risk of death and wipes. Thus, healers not only have the responsibility of preventing failure, but additionally share in the lesser responsibility that DPS roles have, since a Healer that allows a DPS role to die has played a part in reducing the DPS of the party.

In my opinion, I think it's a good thing that different roles have different levels of responsibility. Some players want more responsibility, some want less, and this lets them all play together.

DPS roles always has a job to do, while the job Healers have to do is determined by the encounter

Realistically speaking, you cannot design a fight where DPS roles don't have a job to do; you would have to bend over backwards to do so. Because as long as there's an enemy — which is the whole point of every encounter — there is an HP pool that needs to be drained. By definition, until an encounter ends, there is a need to deal damage.

The same can't be said for Healers. A Healer's job is to keep the party alive. Any time the party isn't at risk of eventual death is a moment when Healers do not have a job to do. Put another way, the need for Healers is relative to the magnitude of harm the encounter deals to the party. Below a certain threshold, Healers will spend a significant amount of each encounter without a job to do. And below an even lower threshold, Healers won't even be needed to do what little job there is to do.

*The only exception to this is content where there is a time crunch mechanic that is guaranteed to wipe the party if some entity isn't killed quickly; in these specific circumstances, Damagers also take on the role of making sure that the encounter doesn't fail.

[ASkellington]

Regarding the holy trinity, I personally think that roles are not very important. The casual content would do just fine without having the holy trinity of tank-dps-healer. but it is helpful for the very casual player who don't really know how to play the game well, since having the normal party composition does make the content easier. For most hardcore contents, the roles matters a lot more though.

We have a game like that. Its called ESO. Healers are also not needed in content and are just more of a buffer for new/bad/inexperienced players.

ESO is not a Holy Trinity game. FFXIV however is.

Raids while having become casual content, arguably shouldn't be. They are supposed to have mechanics for each of the three roles. Not having them in a raid is a red flag.

[Ianmaru]

There are 3 primary aspects that makes these situations meaningfully different:

• Damage determines when a fight is completed, healing determines if a fight is completed*
• DPS roles have lower responsibility than Healers
• DPS roles always has a job to do, while the job Healers have to do is determined by the encounter

Are you talking about FFXIV? Or about a game design that you think ideal? Or some other game?
Because this is definitely not the casual content in FFXIV is. The fact that the game gives some means of HP recovery to tank & dps is so the party can survive without healer. the game gives offensive skills to tank & healer so the party can kill the boss without dps. the game gives personal mitigation tools to dps so the party can survive without tank. the game is trying to make every role equal, so none of the roles feels more important than any other roles, which I personally think a good thing.
In casual content, all the roles equally don't matter.
In hardcore content, all the roles equally matter.

[Ianmaru]

Raids while having become casual content, arguably shouldn't be. They are supposed to have mechanics for each of the three roles. Not having them in a raid is a red flag.

hmm I think first we need to separate between casual content and hardcore content. They literally make two different fight for each raids, one for casual (normal raid), one for hardcore (savage raid)
In savage raid we get all those 'mechanic for each of the three roles'. In normal raid we dont get them because it's catered toward the less skilled players, where each of the trinity roles don't matter that much.
If you like playing a raid where it has mechanics for each roles then stick to savage raids I guess? and avoid normal raid?

[LilimoLimomo]

Are you talking about FFXIV? Or about a game design that you think ideal?

I encourage you to re-read the details of what I wrote and not just the bullet points; if you do, I think you'll find that what I described is how FF14 plays now. I didn't explicitly state it, but hopefully it's clear that when Healers have less of a job to do, they have proportionately less responsibility. Which leaves us where we are now.

the party gives personal mitigation tools to dps so the party can survive without tank.

These mitigation tools generally have a short duration and a long cooldown. They do not give DPS roles the ability to sustainably act as a tank in at-level content.

The fact that the game gives some means of HP recovery to tank & dps is so the party can survive without healer.

It's only in Endwalker that at-level content has been sustainably survivable with dead healers. And what the intent is, only the devs can say. But in previous expansions, your group wasn't going to survive for long with downed healers in at-level content.

[Claire_Pendragon]

This has been rather normal since 1.0, and every expansion/patch.
The method that allows for it would change, but it was always possible, and I would encounter it at least once per expansion myself.
in 1.0, before dungeons, u would pull mobs, and try to chain them. But there was a method for LNC to mass pull far too many mobs for them to handle, barely survive, and insta kill the entire group, not needing tansk or healers (which might sound simple, comparing trash to bosses, but this was more akin to wall to wall pulling in a leveling dungeon (not Lv capped dungeon) w/o tanks. (also very undergeared)
in 2.0 I soloed most fights/dungeons as SMN, so this technically counts, not including the number of times me and my friends would work together to stay alive, if our random healer died. (It was either WARs self healing, or SMNs weak healing)
In 3.0 my groups would randomly die to bosses, and Id end up just soloing the boss as a DRK, only healing with Soul Eater (and the weak blood bath)
I think BRDs also had reasonable regen back then, but i forget, I didnt play one. (PLD got clemency)
in 4.0, it obviously had RDM, which can get a few heals out, before running out of MP, but with that, PLDs clemency, and other minor heals from other jobs, it happened a bit more frequently.
same story as above with 5.0 till today.

on occasion i had to rely on a combination of self heals, and potions, usually in low level content, such as ultima, when my party DCed, and I had to solo it.
The final boss of 3.0, i jokingly went in as a PLD Lv60 (didnt have tome gear yet) so I was Lv synced, and under iLv, and soloed the final boss. (granted the fight is a joke, but ppl pretend it was harder at release, when it wasnt)