Frustrations with BLM immobility

[fulminating]

Just like Monk lost greased lightning, but gained masterful blitz, Black Mage needs to lose timers and gain an actual structure with a core class gimmick that isn't something that other classes should also enjoy.

Timers are a mechanic that date all the way back to 2.0, and it's time they were thrown out and replaced, with the class brought up to the same standard as other jobs.

Do you honestly believe SE is capable of that?

By the by, old and bad are not synonyms in the same way new does not mean good.

[OgruMogru]

Alright, starting from the top.

I'd argue the timers have not been coopted, they were developed and iterated on. You are neglecting to mention the inclusion of Enochian at lvl 60 in HW which like I said added another 30s timer that refreshed upon casting B4 minus 5 seconds of duration as the refreshes were reapplied 30, 25, 20, 15 etc etc The only problem with this system at the time, imo, is that once the timer ran out you were locked out of using F4 and B4 until it was off cooldown. This went on to be removed/relegated to a passive in later patches. While I miss it, it was probably a good thing for people struggling with the job but it's not just some clumsy holdover from ARR. If anything the fact that the timer gimmick has endured for so long is a testament to it's success. The devs are not shy about removing skills or outright gutting jobs on a whim and if there was ever any doubt about the core Af/UI timer it would have been nuked just like the Enochian timer was. They even doubled down on the timers in SB and again in Shb with the addition of the polyglot stacks [foul in SB, Xeno in Shb] with each charge taking 30seconds to generate requiring the AF/UI to be kept running consistently.

Frankly the fact people can't get the basic rotation correct is user error. Like I said above the game could do a better job in explaining how ALL classes work but that doesn't mean everything should be doomed to braindead gameplay. Some amount of non-standard lines are clearly the expected way to play - Yoshi P was using transpose lines in the most recent liveletter in the new trial preview. Using one meme rotation that is completely impractical in most scenarios and requires way more attention than watching a 15 second timer is meaningless, imo, and is a dishonest representation of how Blm optimization actually plays out. Blm is the only job left in the game with such a high ceiling for optimization and that is a good thing, more jobs should have that. We have been given a lot of tools to compensate for the seeming difficulty of the job - insta casts, longer procs, 2 charges of triple and sharp - I'm sure there are other things they could do too like making AF para instant so people that *want* to try to keep their timers up have more breathing room. Or adjusting the way we regain mana in UI phase so we aren't at the mercy of server ticks. Sorry if you're unwilling to utilize or just plain do not appreciate transpose and umbral hearts - I do not consider them superfluous actions at all but umbral hearts could do with "locking" after 3 uses or something so it's not a spam fest during downtime. They have limited applications but they are still really useful. The reason people have been "abandoning the class" is because people just herd into the newest, shiniest or easiest option. This time it's Smn and next exp all those fairweather babies will flitter off to the newest shiniest toy.

What do you think should replace timers? not just a cop out "something better and new" like, mechanically, what would you like to see instead of timers that would interact meaningfully with their kit?

[fulminating]

I think there's been enough stinkers - scholar, dark knight, bard and arguably machinist - that it's difficult to feel rolling the dice is going to result in more fun. I'll mention paladin here, the other EW "sustained damage" job and its recent rework. While broadly successful, it just doesn't have the same appeal to me as it did. If black mage loses some of its unique playstyle, like paladin before it, there won't really be any other job to satisfy that itch.

I suppose we won't really see their next efforts until the dragoon rework comes to fruition along with placeholderCaster and placeholderMelee - might not be fair to judge them based on the new jobs, so smn100 and rpr100 may be a superior litmus.

[Llugen]

... Spells just look more and more miniminal/boring on the BLM end, which doesn't make any sense imo.

This ironically was one of my biggest disgruntled moments in 4.0. Fire IV went from 4 per phase to 6, which kind of reduced its Big Hit Spell™ feel. It's subtle, but now it just feels like standard filler instead of a whallop, and more so as they decide to buff Xenoglossy instead.

...Timers are a mechanic that date all the way back to 2.0, and it's time they were thrown out and replaced, with the class brought up to the same standard as other jobs.

I must admit I never really considered the BLM timers to be a problem, but hearing you say this now I would be interested to see what they might do. I don't love the old PVP idea (if anyone hearkens back to when ice spells would give back MP and fire spells would burn MP), but I don't know how I would fix it either. I would LOVE to see MP no longer a slave to the server tick (why this isn't already a thing is bewildering, frankly).

...Blm is the only job left in the game with such a high ceiling for optimization and that is a good thing, more jobs should have that....

While non-standard gameplay should be protected to some degree and is indeed good, there should still probably be a lower ceiling. Certain things being inaccessible to 99% of the playerbase (Bonds 1 or Superchain 1 Ley Lines strats, for example) definitely feels like a big reason that this lull in players of the class exists (see Taranok's point about "you're practically expected to do certain transpose lines or it's not worth bringing the job at all"). Or a higher floor, I suppose, I mentioned earlier in this thread the AMOUNT more work that BLM requires to do exceptionally well vs SAM to do exceptionally well is not reflected in the damage output(s).

[Shiroe]

dunno about the "transpose line" rotation, or what ever irs called.., but unless you have proca as mp fillers; needing to hard cast F3 on a fire 1 astral, feels like a dps (it might be better, but feels bad)

[Shiroe]

the fact, you need a 3rd party mp tick trigger, makes BLM rotation broken.., hope they fix Blm in 7.0 (or 6.5) .. as transpose was not and should not part of the dps rotation..

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

the fact, you need a 3rd party mp tick trigger, makes BLM rotation broken.., hope they fix Blm in 7.0 (or 6.5) .. as transpose was not and should not part of the dps rotation..

Humble disagree.

Fire III (Firestarter) Transpose lines are an example of why Transpose allows for depth in optimizing BLM damage. They are also incredibly old. Other neat Transpose lines:

• [AF3, min. 1200MP, 2 instantcasts] inst-Despair, Transpose > U-Paradox > inst-Blizz. III {This line removes the -30% damage penalty from AF3 Blizzard III by being in Umbral Ice}
• Transpose > Xenoglossy + Lucid Dreaming > Thunder III (proc) > Transpose > Fire III (proc) {A Blizzard-less Transpose line for a short AF3 window while keeping Paradox for AF3 for more Firestarter chances}

And even if you stick to playing mostly Standard BLM, you are still going to produce good damage numbers. Transpose simply optimisation for those who want to strive for more, so I don't see the point of neutering skill ceiling because some individuals dislike that their damage numbers aren't as high as someone else's when heavily optimizing.

[Llugen]

the fact, you need a 3rd party mp tick trigger, makes BLM rotation broken.., hope they fix Blm in 7.0 (or 6.5) .. as transpose was not and should not part of the dps rotation..

This has been a known "issue" literally since 2.0. I am quite bewildered that there has been nothing done to really address it, save for when they put the hammer down on the infinite flare strat back in like 2.51ish. It is because it has lasted so long that it feels intentional rather than a bug, but people were using MP tick triggers to do fast-tick openers since 3.x at least.

I suppose if I were the one designing it, I would probably just disable natural MP regen while Enochian/Astral/Umbral is active at all (so if you lose it, natural MP regen turns back on so you aren't completely screwed), and make every second of Umbral Ice tick give you back a certain amount of MP (like flamethrower ticks), scaling for I II and III respectively. Maybe I takes 5 seconds to full, II takes 4 seconds, and III takes 3 seconds, or maybe 6s/5s/4s if people don't like that as much.

Basically bad MP tick should not factor into the rotation at all, and "good" MP tick would no longer require a third party tool. Alternatively I suppose they could put IN a server tick trigger into the vanilla game... but I don't think that is their intended purpose.

And even if you stick to playing mostly Standard BLM, you are still going to produce good damage numbers. Transpose simply optimisation for those who want to strive for more, so I don't see the point of neutering skill ceiling because some individuals dislike that their damage numbers aren't as high as someone else's when heavily optimizing.

While I appreciate this to a degree as mentioned before, I still think either the ceiling should be lower or the floor should be higher, especially as the game continues the current meta of "high damage, low support". It cultivates a mindset of "if you don't do this it's not worth playing the job" and that is... not healthy for the community, EVEN as a person who enjoys optimization.

[Shiroe]

if you have procs to waste for transpose, sure, why not
..
still bad design, if MP triggers are needed to run it optimised
..
transpose "higher ceiling" is defacto a "get more procs & use smart" ceiling, until you use mp trigger tools, which needs to change (but marking 2x skill more or less redundant is bad too)

[Turtledeluxe]

Maybe it's because BLM is 90% of my play time but I don't see how it is immobile at 90, or even really prior to that tbh unless you're just bad at it.

To expound, yes SMN has the grand combo of dps, mobility, and utility. But a good BLM decimates SMN in dps. It's not that BLM has no mobility, it's just less (and utility even less so), but that's because BLM has a relatively low ceiling to huge damage. By extensions SMN is easier and better for prog in the earliest stages of raiding, but at least parties who want a devastating dps caster vs one who can res they have that option. Making them the same isn't a good idea.

This is also why all job balance/kit absolutely must be tuned for the hardest content in the game. Put a different way, if BLM only brings "high damage" but it can't actually do that high damage because of fight design/lacking kit, then not only is it not worth bringing mathematically, it also feels like shit. It is all around a lose lose lose experience, and it was frankly painful to watch during ALL of Stormblood.

Adjusting BLM for Ultimates would render other content too easy imo. So yeah maybe they just need to look at the fight design more closely.