I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Mithron]

WHM presses Glare. SGE presses Dosis. Dosis just drops an Embrace on pre-chosen target.

SGE is not more "damage focused" than WHM or any other healer.

[Renathras]

Okay, you all think Aravell's wrong. Got it.

Since this thread has devolved to...whatever this is...all useful discussion has ended. Good job, folks. /golfclap

[Mithron]

Since this thread has devolved to...whatever this is...all useful discussion has ended. Good job, folks. /golfclap

It hasn't. Healers need slightly more complex DPS rotations and/or old Cleric Stance back.

[ForsakenRoe]

Since this thread has devolved to...whatever this is...all useful discussion has ended. Good job, folks. /golfclap

Pot/kettle

Let's run a hypothetical. Imagine a dungeon boss. it autoattacks the tank and it does raidwides. As a demonstration of this 'increased healing required', in your opinion, how often should those raidwides occur, and how much damage should they do? Exact numbers please, no feelycraft 'often enough to require GCD healing', I want an exact number of seconds and damage value (can be rounded to the nearest thousand, eg 10k)

Still waiting on this one, for anyone 100% committed to 'ZERO more damage rotation complexity'/'more healing required of the player is the way to go' who wants to give the thought experiment a go

You still dodged the 'how often should raidwides in EX roulette occur, and how much damage should they do' btw

Waiting for an answer to a simple question is like waiting for new content in this game. It takes months, and when it finally drops it's often halfbaked and needs followups to flesh out (which also take more waiting to get to) /s

[TheOperator3712]

Pot/kettle

Waiting for an answer to a simple question is like waiting for new content in this game. It takes months, and when it finally drops it's often halfbaked and needs followups to flesh out (which also take more waiting to get to) /s

I mean if you really want an answer to that, I'm in the just give healers more damage buttons camp, but it seems to me you need to be throwing out raidwides that hit for ~90% hp every 15 seconds or so to force people into 100% uptime GCD healing with the amount of tools healers have at present.

[Sebazy]

I mean if you really want an answer to that, I'm in the just give healers more damage buttons camp, but it seems to me you need to be throwing out raidwides that hit for ~90% hp every 15 seconds or so to force people into 100% uptime GCD healing with the amount of tools healers have at present.

I'm honestly not sure even 90% hp every 15 seconds is enough for a pair of competent healers with our current kit. E12S door boss wasn't that far off that mark and could be spreadsheeted down to pretty unthinkable levels.

Our kits need to be rethought and pruned in tandem with changes if we're going to see a return to Coil/Gordias levels of healing pressure.

[TheOperator3712]

I'm honestly not sure even 90% hp every 15 seconds is enough for a pair of competent healers with our current kit. E12S door boss wasn't that far off that mark and could be spreadsheeted down to pretty unthinkable levels.

Our kits need to be rethought and pruned in tandem with changes if we're going to see a return to Coil/Gordias levels of healing pressure.

Oh, I was thinking in dungeons. Although, the soft enrage mechanics in O12S and E12S both have similar healing requirements to 90% every 15 seconds; perhaps a tad faster. And both of them could wipe out a healing team's resources pretty fast.

That's beside the point though, as it is completely unrealistic to expect new healers to be able to keep up with that level of healing in casual content. Which was really my point.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Pot/kettle[…]

Nah, I’m sure they’ve been busy so they haven’t had a chance to read & formulate an answer… right??

Jokes aside; for real though, people do be underestimating the amount of required HPS to make healing remotely close to 80% or higher uptime. Sad part is, while vets could probably handle that just okay after a while, a part of the same group that cried for more healing uptime would’ve probably wail even louder afterward because of increased failure rate from doing the very basic thing.

[Renathras]

Pot/kettle

No. And that's exactly the thing I'm talking about.

Moving on:

Who is what content for? Serious question. Extremes aren't to keep Savage raiders entertained, because that's impossible. Speaking of questions asked before without answer, I've asked that one: What level of DPS rotation WOULD IT TAKE to keep you entertained in current Extremes? The answer was crickets. Because I suspect we all know it would need to be something like BLM otherwise you're going to still end up bored. More DPS buttons masks the problem, it doesn't fix it. At the end of the day, you won't be entertained/not bored in Extremes unless you have something comparable to a DPSers rotation because there just aren't going to be enough mechanics for your SMN-lite rotation to be entertaining. 1-2 more DPS buttons, or even 3-5 likely won't help. Can you REALLY tell me that applying Dia every 12 seconds is going to make you not bored anymore? Especially when your AOE rotation will ignore it anyway in favor of Holyspam?

Given that, changes aren't being made to "dungeon bosses" to keep you entertained, since nothing will. So we aren't talking about dungeons. We're talking about Savage bosses and Extreme bosses.

As I've told you before - you just like to ignore things I've said to you that answer your question so you can act like it hasn't been answered as some kind of damning mic drop moment - actual changes would require a complete readjustment to the kits. Potency balancing and oGCD timer adjustments. So it wouldn't be "with our current kits".

You aren't "Still waiting on this one" because I've answered you on this before, probably multiple times. I've never dodged it and I DID give you exact numbers before.

So you aren't "Waiting for an answer to a simple question", since you got answers, you just handwaved them away or ignored them.

[ForsakenRoe]

Sorry in advance this is a long post, but if I put it in HB tags the person who needs to read it might just skip it and then claim I've not answered their questions

As I've told you before - you just like to ignore things I've said to you that answer your question so you can act like it hasn't been answered as some kind of damning mic drop moment - actual changes would require a complete readjustment to the kits. Potency balancing and oGCD timer adjustments. So it wouldn't be "with our current kits".

You aren't "Still waiting on this one" because I've answered you on this before, probably multiple times. I've never dodged it and I DID give you exact numbers before.

So you aren't "Waiting for an answer to a simple question", since you got answers, you just handwaved them away or ignored them.

I'm not looking for any mic drop moments, I'm just curious what you think would be an acceptable amount of damage from an EX roulette dungeon boss would be, such that it would be entertaining for all players, of various skill levels. If you think this:

Given that, changes aren't being made to "dungeon bosses" to keep you entertained, since nothing will. So we aren't talking about dungeons. We're talking about Savage bosses and Extreme bosses.

...That anyone who does Extreme/Savage/Ultimate should just... not be considered for 'dungeon boss' balance changes, that 'how to make the content more fun for a player of a higher skill level' is not something to bother with looking into, such that the dungeons remain piss-easy to those higher-skill players and are nothing more than a chore to get through to cap tomes (rather than content that is fun in it's own right), then it's not a 'solution' at all. It's a half-arsed deflection to let SE pretend they've 'made changes see we're listening guys!' but it would solve little to nothing about the issues being raised

What level of DPS rotation WOULD IT TAKE to keep you entertained in current Extremes? The answer was crickets. Because I suspect we all know it would need to be something like BLM otherwise you're going to still end up bored. More DPS buttons masks the problem, it doesn't fix it. At the end of the day, you won't be entertained/not bored in Extremes unless you have something comparable to a DPSers rotation because there just aren't going to be enough mechanics for your SMN-lite rotation to be entertaining. 1-2 more DPS buttons, or even 3-5 likely won't help. Can you REALLY tell me that applying Dia every 12 seconds is going to make you not bored anymore? Especially when your AOE rotation will ignore it anyway in favor of Holyspam?

I've answered this, multiple times: the rotation I suggested would be one I'd be satisfied with. The ones you've suggested, I'd have reservations about how long the 'this is enough' would last, but I'd try it. And here's the receipts for you to not read (again) because they're in a HB tag:

We don't need much, just a couple of small, focused changes is enough to spice things up. For example, for the damage side of things, all I would ask for WHM is to reduce Dia's duration to 12s (because 30s feels stupid), and to add a new Water/Banish GCD with a 15s CD. That's all. That's not going to suddenly make WHM gigabrain to play, you could even make a macro to auto-use Banish if it's ready and Glare if it isn't, if you wanted.

The question was "how in-depth would a healer rotation in Lapis Manilis have to be for you not to be bored?", and this meaning "running it for ~8-9 months".

And I answered. You might not like the answer, but it was given. I think that the changes to WHM that I have posted, almost a year ago now, would be enough to keep healing EX roulettes interesting to me, and also be casual-friendly enough that SE might actually implement them if anyone actually sent a copy across the design team's desks. Not much chance of that happening though.

I said I'd be agreeable to your WHM, and your SCH. Why am I getting flak for being 'opposed to your ideas' when I've literally said 'yeh this sounds alright'. For example, here for SCH, and here for WHM.

Yes, I remember your WHM proposal, and agreeing that it'd be pretty acceptable.

Reducing Dia to 12s doesn't sound like much of a change, but you can go to Bozja and try it yourself (so you can have Lost Banish in place of actual Banish). As for 'ignore Dia in AOE rotation', yeh, that's why after using the damage neutral heal, Dia would become a gain as Tornado, even in AOE. So your GCD AOE kit (vs a pull of 7 mobs) could potentially be (27 GCDs listed, so just over 1min of gameplay, or less than 1min if you actually use POM on trash instead of saving it for next expansion the boss):

-Holy (+14 gauge per cast) x 11 (gives a total of 154 gauge)
-Blessing of the Elementals (-50 gauge per cast) x 3 (total cost of 150 gauge)
-Quake x 3
-Tornado x 3
-Flood x 3
-Solace/Misery x 3
-Misery x 1

...Or you can just stick to Holy as you do now, because it's a dungeon and nobody gives a damn if you fully optimize the heck out of the Haam RainbowGolems in Aetherfont. It's not like I bother to do the 'force prep Misery to use on AOE pull' thing in dungeons because it doesn't matter. Even though, unlike singletarget where it's a gain in raidbuffs, it's an outright gain in AOE, buffs or not. But the point is, you'd still be able to use the Dia DOT in AOE, because I thought it'd be a cool idea to have the DOT have an AOE component when it's empowered, such that you can tear packs of mobs to shreds with it, without the whole 'tab target, apply DOT, tab target, apply DOT' thing. If you didn't want to use that extra button in AOE (should said design be the one in the game) then you could just keep pressing Holy and not care.

So yeh, again for the umpteenth time, the 'damage rotation I'd be satisfied with' is what I suggested. Seems a bit silly to suggest a change that I wouldn't be happy with, doesn't it? Of course, you're free to ignore that and claim that 'Roe keeps dodging and never answers the question of 'what complexity would it take to satisfy?' because clearly the answer is that if it's not BLM hard then it won't be enough for them!'

And for the raidwide frequency/intensity question, I'll add some numbers: Current AST can heal, completely for free via it's 60s OGCDs, 20k raidwide damage each 20s, by just cycling which tool it uses like you would with WHM Lilies. I wasn't even in BIS, I put my old prog crafted set back on for this one. It also doesn't factor in Macrocosmos or Lady of Crowns. A casual player can handle this with just 100% Medica2 uptime (in fact, it'd be around 300p worth of overheal each time, as you'd only need 700p ish to equal the damage). But if you wanted to make GCDs 'required', you'd have to put out damage enough to not only match the HPS output from these tools, but vastly exceed them. Like, 20k every 10 seconds would be closer to what you'd need. And I don't know if every casual player can 'grow to meet higher HPS requirements' like you've said previously, if that's the number they're having to try and meet.

You're right that a change like this would take 'a complete readjustment to the kits'. The problem is, I don't know if you're fully grasping the sheer size of the 'readjustment' required. To get us using enough healing GCDs to satisfy your desire to have us 'feel like healers', without ramping the damage on raidwides (as that would be casual player-exclusionary), would require that all the 60s CDs on AST become like... 180s. Or 120s, with halved potencies. Essential Dignity to a 90s CD. Benison recharge time to 60s. Asylum potency halved or something (450p total instead of 900). That wouldn't just 'make us rely on GCDs more', it'd feel awful in practice. And I'm not just saying that because 'opinion', you can see how people felt about the potencies of AST in 5.0, on launch, when it's OGCDs were super weak. The fact that SE fixed them so fast shows that the 'make the OGCDs weaker/less accessible' 'solution' is not the one to go for.

And that's not even considering that if your OGCD potencies/CD are less accessible, then you're spending more MP thanks to the extra reliance on GCD healing. So now you've got 6.0 WHM style MP issues. So then, do you want to 'fix' the 'fix' by changing MP costs or Lucid's potency to rectify the problem you've created, of running dry on MP? Or would you want to leave the higher costs as a 'feature' of the gameplay, thereby raising 'complexity' of all of the healers (and thereby messing up your '4 healers' thingy)? It's easy to say 'here's how to fix the problem' but it's a butterfly effect of extra knock-on issues that get raised that also have to be factored in and removed or minimized, and no matter how it gets sliced, I can't see how 'more healing needed' results in an overall smaller devtime cost than 'add more damage buttons'