I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Deceptus]

Ideally? 50/50 split.

I will say, personally, even if they gave us an in-depth damage kit, that only fixes half of our problems. The other half of our problems is that we spend most of our time using the downtime kit in the first place.

A proper fix would have in-depth damage kit with increased healing requirements. Uptime and downtime kit improved hand-in-hand.

It wouldn't have to be all damage if it could be support / buffing and debuffing.

I wouldn't even mind that because that's at least engaging and helping the party.

[Mithron]

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

[ForsakenRoe]

Been playing Season of Discovery in WOW. Playing Paladin mostly as tank but sometimes I heal (for faster dungeon finding). Thanks to runes, the special 'gimmick' of the season, gameplay is similar to here, 60-70% GCDs spent on damage, the rest on healing. Difference is that I have a lot more damage buttons there than I do here, and it's a frankenstein of a 20 year old game with a 'twist' stitched into it very haphazardly (sometimes bugs happen with it, like questgivers dialog bugs out if it's rune related, and you have to do /reload to fix it)

When I'm healing on Paladin, I've got:

Autoattacks, they do actual damage
Seals to make autoattacks have extra effects, such as MP restore (Wisdom), HP (Light), extra damage (Righteousness) or attackspeed (Crusader)
Judgement to unleash the effect of the Seal, such as Crusader amplifying holy damage on the target, or Light allowing anyone hitting the target to heal ala Bloodbath. Of note is Righteousness, as it is flat holy damage, so doing this every 10s is another way to attack

Consecration, 8s CD, drops an AOE that deals DOT damage with no target cap, lasts 8s, pretty mana intensive though
Crusader Strike, 6s CD, restores 5% of my mana, is considered a melee hit
Divine Storm, 10s CD, hits 4 enemies, heals for 25% of the total damage dealt
Exorcism, 15s CD, deals damage, guaranteed crit on Demon or Undead enemy types
Holy Shock, 30s CD, deals damage or heals depending on target
Sheath of Light, passive that makes me have 30% of my physical attack power be added to my magic attack power rating for 1min each time I hit an enemy (aka 100% uptime), makes my heals stronger too
The Art of War, getting a melee crit (autoattack, Divine Storm, Crusader Strike) instantly resets the CD on Exorcism and Holy Shock

Blessing of Might increases physical attack power for target (yes that means party members not just me)
Blessing of Wisdom gives MP regen
Blessing of Salvation reduces threat generated (rip Smokescreen)
Blessing of Light makes your heal GCDs stronger by a flat amount
Blessing of Freedom removes slows/roots
Blessing of Protection prevents all physical damage to the target but prevents them from dealing physical damage

Devotion Aura gives bonus armor to all nearby allies
Retribution Aura causes reflect damage to enemies that hit any ally physically
Concentration Aura helps prevent spell pushback (the part of Surecast we never make use of)
Shadow/Frost/Fire Res Aura reduces damage dealt by those elements

Oh yeh and Hammer of Justice, a 60s CD stun. Its fun having more damage buttons, and having impactful utilities. Who knew?

Ideally? 50/50 split.
I will say, personally, even if they gave us an in-depth damage kit, that only fixes half of our problems. The other half of our problems is that we spend most of our time using the downtime kit in the first place.
A proper fix would have in-depth damage kit with increased healing requirements. Uptime and downtime kit improved hand-in-hand.

Basically where I'd stand on it too, just adding more damage rotation isn't the fix on its own, but it's a start. The biggest issue though is WHM. Given it's so GCD heavy on it's healing kit, it skews the question somewhat, as it doesn't have OGCDs to pad out the 50% we'd ask for, so for WHM specifically the ratio would be different I think. And then for AST, the issue is kind of reversed, with card gameplay bloating the OGCD side of the ratio

(SCH’s DOT juggling or a version of DNC’s base 1^3^5 2^4^6 are good examples)

DNC without the dances would be a good amount of complexity for the damage, I think. a two step rotation, two procs to react to, a poolable resource (up to 4) and a 0-100 gauge that is spent on a big hit. So if we remove Fan Dance 1-2-3, and just have the 'feathers' used on FD4 (so it has use in ST and AOE), have the four base GCDs for ST (and just one with it's associated proc for AOE to save buttons), and maybe change Saber Dance to be a cool strong healing GCD (which refunds itself by being damage neutral, EG by forcing the procs on the 1-2 combo, or by giving a free use of FanDance4), then we'd have a good level of complexity I think, with many directions to 'add to' for later expansions designwise (Eg, a Flourish move to force procs, another gauge spender, 'feather' spender, etc)

edit:

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

Sounds 'interesting' in some regards, but given they can't make the tanks/healers feel 'distinct' enough from one another, we'd probably end up with the DPS feeling very samey too. It does confuse me why they felt RPR needed to have the 3% damage buff though. Ideally Viper will be selfish like SAM, so that Scouting mains can choose between Selfish and Raidbuffer easily

The issue isn't DPS having party-buffs, the issue I think is that they're too similar in what the buffs do, they're all just damage, crit rate or dhit rate (aka crit rate 2). We can't have GCD haste because it screws people's rotation alignment. We can't have ability recast reduction, because the 2min meta is so important now that misalignment is devastating to the raid's damage. They've painted themselves into a corner designwise on what buff effects we can actually have, so we just get 'X% damage dealt increase' reskinned several times

[ForteNightshade]

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

Ironically, I think this benefits the DPS roles themselves the most as they could finally have quirks or gimmicks that make unique without balance concerns. So long as the numbers matched up at some point, you'd be golden. That isn't to say it wouldn't benefit tanks and healers too. Both would get actually stuff to do beyond their basic DPS, especially healers.

[Supersnow845]

Mitigation is a type of healing so I don’t think that mitigation being only on the tanks is helpful, I do like the DPS being selfish though

If I had to organise them I’d put them
-DPS->selfish with one or two noticeable exceptions that’s their entire playstyle design (like DNC)
-tanks->personal mitigation for tanking the boss
-shield healers->mitigation
->regen healers->reactive healing

[Aravell]

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

I don't think it's a bad thing to have some overlap within the trinity, purely focusing on only one aspect of combat can be insanely dull unless done really well.

That said, there is a limit to the overlap so they don't end up with some omnirole monstrosity like WAR is in dungeons right now.

[Supersnow845]

I don’t like the current design of mitigation being a complete pass fail check on raidwides that do too much damage but I like the idea of mitigation and shields that functionally do the opposite of what pure healing does (like what a shield healer should be)

For example if a raidwide is going to do 10,000 damage, a shield healer mitigates 20% of that (2000 damage) and heals 1000 (3000 total), a regen healer simply heals for 3000

Mitigation as a form of pre-emptive healing is what I’ve always liked about shield healers, 14 just dials it up to 11 but making the shield healer unequivocally the most important member of the party in high end duties and completely irrelevant in casual content

[Colt47]

I don’t like the current design of mitigation being a complete pass fail check on raidwides that do too much damage but I like the idea of mitigation and shields that functionally do the opposite of what pure healing does (like what a shield healer should be)

For example if a raidwide is going to do 10,000 damage, a shield healer mitigates 20% of that (2000 damage) and heals 1000 (3000 total), a regen healer simply heals for 3000

Mitigation as a form of pre-emptive healing is what I’ve always liked about shield healers, 14 just dials it up to 11 but making the shield healer unequivocally the most important member of the party in high end duties and completely irrelevant in casual content

The idea with this current iteration of the game is definitely more about timing than it was in ShB and that's likely due to the 2 minute cycle being the standard. But having such a strict structure makes it feel kind of cheap and budgety in terms of how the fighting feels. That and it feels engineered towards end game hard mode fights where people are trying to stack multipliers to beat enrage checks where the base damage can't cut it. Having a 2 minute cycle globally in all content does make the leap into the hardmode content less daunting, but it misses the point of why people generally avoid the end game content in the first place, which is the amount of time needed to study in order to understand the fight and beat it. That and things always start out all rosy until people get stuck somewhere, and then the truth that every person is for themselves comes to light and rips things steadily apart, since in PF there is no social contract outside of maybe a threat of being black listed by a person you'll forget the name of the following day.

And even in statics the same traction can happen from poor management. E.g. a group going for three days gets cut down to two because one of the members can't make three days anymore, so they don't cut the person and find another that can. Then people get burned out since they can't prog off two days a week efficiently. I've seen this happen with groups all the time and no one ever learns. They let the relationship with the other members impact and get in the way of the primary goal.

[Maltothoris]

Bringing this back up as a point just that healers need SOMETHING to do during downtime. Could be slightly more dps rotations or it could be buffs or debuffs.

[Tysilio]

I'm all for it, but the problem with that change is that there's going to be too many actions that will be needed to be bound to keys for PC players. On my healer jobs I'm already almost at the limit of hotbar slots that I have keybinds for, while keeping a somewhat logical layout at the same time.

So either they replace some healing spells with some offensive/buff/debuff ones, or I'll have to completely rethink my UI/hotbar/keybind layout I guess, which would make me sad.