I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Colt47]

Oh boy, yet another "go play DPS" argument. Welp, you heard it here folks, guess we should remove all those damage tools from tanks too, how dare they be able to have a compelling DPS rotation, they should know their role. Oh, sorry Dancer, Curing Waltz is for healers, you should know your role before you start doing some healing. Magick Barrier? Tut tut, you should know better Red Mage. Look at you, with your Vercure and Verraise and Embolden, what are you doing with those, trying to be a healer and off-load your DPS to everyone else? Don't you know you're a DPS?

Try to actually address the complaints people have and understand the topic, maybe then you'll understand why healers are asking for extra DPS tools instead of being dismissive.

I know for WHM one thing I miss is Aero II, but I'm a strange person that likes flavor over practicality. Healers for the most part feel more like WoW classes that are based on priority. Like hypothetically you always want to keep your Dia up on whatever you're dpsing, but as a healer we can't control Leeroy Jenkins or his cousins rushing in and taking damage because they got bopped under a pillar and then squashed like a bug.

[Nobuyuki_Sanada]

Question number (1) I'm genuinely curious, did you happen to read any part of this discussion, or did you just read the thread title- which is misleading- before adding your comment regarding "complex dps rotation"?

Question number (2) why or where do you feel that you need more support/ healing responsibilities, and can you provide examples?

1. I read the OP and responded, did I read all 80 pages, nope. I left my feedback for the discussion topic, if I wanted to address any specific comment I would quote it as I done here
2. Because the role is Healer, if I wanted to do damage I would play dps, I'm not playing a different role to have the same experience as another. I'm not saying I currently need more healing support, I'm saying I wish I did so I could perform the responsibilities my role was meant for. It sucks playing a healer and having nothing to heal so I get stuck having to dps. My solution is to make healing more interesting and have fights make me do it more, not make the shit I don't wanna do (dps) more prevalent.

[TheDustyOne]

I know for WHM one thing I miss is Aero II, but I'm a strange person that likes flavor over practicality. Healers for the most part feel more like WoW classes that are based on priority. Like hypothetically you always want to keep your Dia up on whatever you're dpsing, but as a healer we can't control Leeroy Jenkins or his cousins rushing in and taking damage because they got bopped under a pillar and then squashed like a bug.

My personal preference for healer DPS is more priority-based as well rather than a strict rotation, makes it easy to interrupt the damage flow with a heal or two. I already have moments on RDM where I suddenly need to Verraise healers, but I'm stuck in the middle of my melee burst, healers should ultimately try to avoid that in their designs, and I think procs, gauges, extra DoTs, buffs, etc. can fill that dead Glaroilificosis spam nicely without impacting on healing ability. Healers mostly just need flexibility in their kit rather than strict combos and use-it-now actions.

[Nobuyuki_Sanada]

Oh boy, yet another "go play DPS" argument. Welp, you heard it here folks, guess we should remove all those damage tools from tanks too, how dare they be able to have a compelling DPS rotation, they should know their role. Oh, sorry Dancer, Curing Waltz is for healers, you should know your role before you start doing some healing. Magick Barrier? Tut tut, you should know better Red Mage. Look at you, with your Vercure and Verraise and Embolden, what are you doing with those, trying to be a healer and off-load your DPS to everyone else? Don't you know you're a DPS?

Try to actually address the complaints people have and understand the topic, maybe then you'll understand why healers are asking for extra DPS tools instead of being dismissive.

Lol read your argument. Dancer's aren't bitching about only having 1 heal, Redmage's having multiple support abilities is a huge problem atm, literally making other casters not wanted by raiders because they can't do what red mages do. I'm not being dismissive I'm trying to explain that your real issue is with being bored not that your not doing enough damage. Instead of making the class fun by turning it into a dps, make the act of healing actually fun. Exactly how idk I can think of examples but the idea isn't ludacris and is definitely possible. Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

[ForsakenRoe]

My solution is to make healing more interesting and have fights make me do it more, not make the shit I don't wanna do (dps) more prevalent.

Unfortunately, the Venn diagram of 'amount of healing that will satisfy seasoned healer mains' and 'amount of healing that is still clearable by less skilled/newer-to-role healer players' are two distinct, non overlapping circles. There's no magical 'midpoint' where we get engaging healing gameplay as someone with any degree of competence, without it causing complaints for being 'too hard'. The usual response for this dilemma is 'well, obviously the casual content wouldn't be changed as much/at all, so the casual players don't get walled', but I'd argue (and have for several months, and will for several more most likely) that 'any solution for this problem which affects only a portion of the game's content (that is, only Savage and Ultimate, or Extreme trial and above), is not a solution, it's a bandaid'. I want to feel engaged in ANY content I play as a healer, even something like EX roulette or Maps. So excluding those pieces of content from being engaging for the sake of the casual players, isn't going to make my experience of capping tomes more 'fun and engaging'.

So any solution that would be acceptable, has to be in some way that is 'optional', as it were. Something that, should you mess it up due to lack of experience with the role, you will not cause a wipe or such. And 'more intricacy in the DPS rotation' is one of the simplest ways to do that, hence why people ask for it in such numbers. We aren't asking for DPS level complexity, most I've seen ask for either Tank level gameplay, or just 'can we have what we had in SB back'. It also would open design space for the devs to add new moves, interactions, mechanics to the jobs. We got 'We didn't really know what to do with SCH' this expansion, which led to Expedient. Would they have said they didn't know what to do with SCH, if they hadn't removed the possibility of 'here's a new action that deals damage' from the entire role? Or the possibility of interactions like 'Each time your DOTs deal damage, they generate Fairy Gauge', or 'Each time you deal damage with a WHM damage skill, you generate points in a new gauge, and at 50 gauge you can cast a massive AOE heal move'?

This topic has arisen more times than can be counted, and every time, it's the same premise, and the same rebuttals. It's like a pantomime

I'm trying to explain that your real issue is with being bored not that your not doing enough damage.

Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

It has nothing to do with how MUCH damage we deal, and everything to do with HOW that damage is dealt. If we got a more involved rotation patched in, and our DPS didn't change at all, that's the ideal solution IMO. I don't care how much damage I'm doing, I care that I'm doing it by pressing Glare 160 times over the course of the fight.

The combo heal, proc heal etc sounds good on paper, but paper is as far as it goes before hitting issues. Example, people get annoyed about Minor Arcana. A 50% 'proc' on either a heal or damage, the one thing we don't want on healing tools is for them to be unreliable on whether they're available or not. We criticized Bole for AST because of this, a raid mit isn't exactly great if we can't guarantee it's up at the right time. Combo heals would be less of an issue, but I think that the reason that this kind of stuff can't work is because the game's just not built for it. We have far too much AOE healing potential. It works in something like WOW because their AOEs are all gated by CDs or are horribly inefficient (Holy Nova heals for almost nothing, Chain Heal is very Mana hungry and targetcapped, etc), we can throw out 3200 potency of healing (Medica 1) every 2.5s, and that's our most 'inefficient' healing option, Solace is free, Asylum is free, Lilybell is free, the other healers have other free tools.

Edit: Combo heals/proc heals actually already exist, now that I think about it. Cure1 has a chance to combo into Cure2, making it free. Cure2 used to have a chance to combo into Cure3, halving it's MP cost (very strange). Benefic has a chance to combo into Benefic 2, making it guaranteed to crit. We do not ever take advantage of any of these on purpose, because they're GCD heals and they suck. If we need to heal with a GCD heal, rather than Cure 1-ing to try for the free Cure 2, we'd just use the Cure2 twice as it's more healing power for the 2 GCDs it costs, and we don't care about the mana efficiency or lack thereof because MP management is apparently not a thing anymore

[TheDustyOne]

Lol read your argument. Dancer's aren't bitching about only having 1 heal, Redmage's having multiple support abilities is a huge problem atm, literally making other casters not wanted by raiders because they can't do what red mages do.

You haven't seen many red mages then; many are annoyed at the 'rez tax' we have that makes SMN and BLM more appealing, so that makes no sense. The point I'm making here is that the trinity isn't strict, DPS and Tanks CAN do things outside their role for the sake of job variety. Otherwise we may as well have only 5 jobs for the 5 roles.

I'm not being dismissive I'm trying to explain that your real issue is with being bored not that your not doing enough damage.

Disingenuous, no one actually cares about the actual DPS number, you could half it and no one would care outside soloing, I care about making sure I'm not bored out of my skull by spamming only 1 button.

Instead of making the class fun by turning it into a dps, make the act of healing actually fun. Exactly how idk I can think of examples but the idea isn't ludacris and is definitely possible. Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

This is FFXIV, every class is a pseudo-DPS, we've had 2 expansions for the devs to "make healing fun", and all it's done is keep the healing requirements low and bloat our kits with unnecessary giga-heals for a mechanic that gets used like once a fight. Fights that actually stress our kits to the limit not only can't be done, not even by ultimate fights, doing so would drive healers away similar to what Abyssos did.

The devs have done what you asked and its led to healer shortages, we did fine back in HW and SB when we had more interesting DPS kits, so how about we try that again?

[AmiableApkallu]

Exactly how idk I can think of examples but the idea isn't ludacris and is definitely possible. Fill the free time with healing not dps, I want combo heals, synergizing heals, proccing heals, and for any of that to be fun we need more and more frequent damage.

Care to answer the questions I posed previously in this thread?

What exactly does an encounter look like where less-skilled parties still have room for making and recovering from mistakes, while more-skilled parties somehow can't spend half their time dealing damage?

[Fellgon]

In my opinion if you and me have more complex dps rotation would drain our mana and so we wouldn't be able to heal effectively. And healing is a matter of seconds. That second we waste dpsing the party is gone.

[Supersnow845]

In my opinion if you and me have more complex dps rotation would drain our mana and so we wouldn't be able to heal effectively. And healing is a matter of seconds. That second we waste dpsing the party is gone.

What stops a more complex rotation from having every skill cost 400 mana like our current glare spam does

[Fellgon]

I guees in early shadowbringers days mana was drained very fast. I guess they fixed it. Maybe they should make thinks more dificult then.