I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ASkellington]

As noted above: I remember a week or so ago when I suggested adding Holy to the single-target rotation and you insisted against it, pointing out Holy is an AOE ability and is for AOE, and how you dislike that Misery, an AOE ability, is used in single-target rotations.

...Aero 3 is AOE. To show consistency with your stated viewpoint, shouldn't you be arguing against it's addition OR insisting it be a DPS loss over Glare so that it won't be used in single-target, considering you dislike Misery being part of the single-target rotation and oppose Holy being part of it? I'm not asking this as a gotcha, more just noting an inconsistency.

I also find it odd how anyone would see Aero 3 and go "man, that's some depth right there!"

Thank you for once again putting words in my mouth.

At what point did I ever say that it was a DPS loss? Last I checked I agreed that for your idea to work Holy had to have a boost as you made it so it WOULDN'T be a loss?

Also I did say that I had preferred Misery to take Holy's place in your rotation specifically because it was more of a single target button than Holy ever was unless you also want to change Holy to be 50% less damage to anything other than the target (assuming you are still making Holy be ranged)?

Aero 3 does not have to come back as an AOE. It can literally be another DoT on a shorter CD and I would be fine with it. If it comes back as an AOE I don't think I'd like it other than it gives WHM another AOE attack (which I would argue all healers should get anyway) but its whatever. As was your rotation.

Would I rather have Aero 3 or your rotation? Probably Aero 3 because at least I have another DoT to juggle regardless of whether or not it is AOE. Would I rather have your idea of Dia proccing say a Misery or Assize/other DPS button over Aero 3? Also sure. And I said as much.

"Glare > Glare > Glare > buffed Holy" may fit the criteria of a simple rotation, but it isn't a welcomed one to me.

I see no reason for 3 single target presses to then ask for an AOE one just because you don't want to add in another button for a class that doesn't struggle with button bloat in comparison to its peers.

It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel fun to play. You don't like that answer? Tough. Its the same answer I gave to Ty when he suggested cards on the GCD. Don't know why you want to fixate on that.

[Shurrikhan]

I see no reason for 3 single target presses to then ask for an AOE one just because you don't want to add in another button for a class that doesn't struggle with button bloat in comparison to its peers.

It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel fun to play. You don't like that answer? Tough. Its the same answer I gave to Ty when he suggested cards on the GCD. Don't know why you want to fixate on that.

Misery is an AoE. Does that make it apropos to use in single-target rotation?

Every Summon nuke is AoE. Every Blitz is AoE. Verholy combo is AoE. Originally, SAM's CD nuke was an AoE. I don't get why it'd suddenly be wrong for WHM to have an AoE infrequently included within their ST rotation...

Cards on the GCD at least would least affect other systems and playflow. That we don't have separate buttons for the ST version vs. an AoE-with-falloff doesn't seem nearly so big a deal. If anything, it sounds reminiscent of a better state of the game.

Personal preference and such, but I just don't see why specifically forbidding AoEs from having a place in ST rotation would be a helpful design principle.

[ASkellington]

Misery is an AoE. Does that make it apropos to use in single-target rotation?

Every Summon nuke is AoE. Every Blitz is AoE. Verholy combo is AoE. Originally, SAM's CD nuke was an AoE. I don't get why it'd suddenly be wrong for WHM to have an AoE infrequently included within their ST rotation...

Cards on the GCD at least would least affect other systems and playflow. That we don't have separate buttons for the ST version vs. an AoE-with-falloff...

Like wise, and I've said as much before I see no reason why WHM's AOE needs to now be apart of its single target.

As I've said before as well, you see it as reusing an ability and giving it a new place that it didn't have before. I see it as a lazy design attempt especially coming from the devs from developing something new instead.

I've already explained Misery. I don't see it as an AoE when 50% of its damage is removed on other enemies than its intended target. To my eyes by that point it is mostly a single target button. Now you can argue semantics and perhaps it is. The point is no, I don't want Holy as apart of the single target rotation I would rather have something else. Period.

[Shurrikhan]

I've already explained Misery. [I]I don't see it as an AoE when 50% of its damage is removed on other enemies than its intended target.

50% of 1040 potency would still be 520 AoE potency... It has an area of effect. Its damage is greatly increased if it can cleave. It's not "semantics" to call it an AoE.

But okay, have it on a separate button then. I just see little difference between having potentially a new effect, new animation, and new name as a procced upgrade to Holy (the only restriction being that it'd still have to do at least Holy's AoE damage and stun) and having a new button that isn't effectively the likes of asking for a second Glare button to hit for identical effect. It seems most like extra buttons for extra buttons' sake.

[ty_taurus]

Like wise, and I've said as much before I see no reason why WHM's AOE needs to now be apart of its single target.

As I've said before as well, you see it as reusing an ability and giving it a new place that it didn't have before. I see it as a lazy design attempt especially coming from the devs from developing something new instead.

I've already explained Misery. I don't see it as an AoE when 50% of its damage is removed on other enemies than its intended target. To my eyes by that point it is mostly a single target button. Now you can argue semantics and perhaps it is. The point is no, I don't want Holy as apart of the single target rotation I would rather have something else. Period.

You'd rather have a button that is effectively dead on your hotbar for the majority of this game's content rather than have a button that serves both the purpose of being AoE spam while also being a part of your single target rotation? AoE is not interesting or exciting in this game. There is 0 reason to have entirely divorced AoE buttons eating up space on your hotbar especially when hotbar space is factor that plays into what new actions a job is permitted to have.

Ren's more on the money on this one. I think that maybe there's a little more we can do with holy than just making it a higher damage nuke after three Glares, but it's not something I'm opposed to either. It's no golden goose on its own, but actually giving Holy a purpose other than to burn down random trash that no one cares about is a small victory at the very least.

[ASkellington]

You'd rather have a button that is effectively dead on your hotbar for the majority of this game's content rather than have a button that serves both the purpose of being AoE spam while also being a part of your single target rotation? AoE is not interesting or exciting in this game. There is 0 reason to have entirely divorced AoE buttons eating up space on your hotbar especially when hotbar space is factor that plays into what new actions a job is permitted to have.

Because I don't care that its dead outside of AoE instances.

If you want to have a discussion on that for the classes as a whole that's one thing. We aren't discussing that.

The design premise is this:

3 Glares = a buffed up Holy to

1. Not give WHMs an alienating rotation
2. Break up Glare spam.

It does both of these things. I don't like it. And I wouldn't want it.

I would much rather prefer having a proccing Dia or a better designed lily system that does what its supposed to - reward the WHM healing with damage.

3 glares into a holy is something we have in the game already. The only thing missing is a trait.

[ty_taurus]

Because I don't care that its dead outside of AoE instances.

If you want to have a discussion on that for the classes as a whole that's one thing. We aren't discussing that.

The design premise is this:

3 Glares = a buffed up Holy to

1. Not give WHMs an alienating rotation
2. Break up Glare spam.

It does both of these things. I don't like it. And I wouldn't want it.

I would much rather prefer having a proccing Dia or a better designed lily system that does what its supposed to - reward the WHM healing with damage.

3 glares into a holy is something we have in the game already. The only thing missing is a trait.

Ren's specific proposition may specify exactly that (and Aero 3), but nothing else. But that doesn't mean other things like a "Diacloud" proc, or a revamped lily system cannot exist simultaneously. Like I said, I'm not advocating for his suggestion specifically, but giving a use to Holy always, not just at the game's lowest, most uninteresting points, is a checkbox I would like to see filled. And that applies to all the healers.

[ASkellington]

Ren's specific proposition may specify exactly that (and Aero 3), but nothing else. But that doesn't mean other things like a "Diacloud" proc, or a revamped lily system cannot exist simultaneously. Like I said, I'm not advocating for his suggestion specifically, but giving a use to Holy always, not just at the game's lowest, most uninteresting points, is a checkbox I would like to see filled. And that applies to all the healers.

And I have said if you want to give Holy (and other aoes) something else to do that's fine. That doesn't mean I want it as a part of a rotation.

[Shurrikhan]

Ren's more on the money on this one. I think that maybe there's a little more we can do with holy than just making it a higher damage nuke after three Glares, but it's not something I'm opposed to either. It's no golden goose on its own, but actually giving Holy a purpose other than to burn down random trash that no one cares about is a small victory at the very least.

Aye. I don't especially care for Ren's suggested procedure, but there seems no point in leaving certain buttons dead in any almost all serious content.

:: Inb4 any what-about for Repose, Esuna, etc. Yes, ideally I wouldn't leave those dead, either. But not necessarily going for one more instance of bloat doesn't require removing every single other instance of it.

[ty_taurus]

Aye. I don't especially care for Ren's suggested procedure, but there seems no point in leaving certain buttons dead in any almost all serious content.

:: Inb4 any what-about for Repose, Esuna, etc. Yes, ideally I wouldn't leave those dead, either. But not necessarily going for one more instance of bloat doesn't require removing every single other instance of it.

The idea solution to Esuna is simply make debuffs more consistent. There are a couple of issues with Esuna as it stands: 1. The UI is in dire need of a modernization to make cleansable debuffs more visible. A hair-thin, tiny blue line above an already tiny debuff icon is something I'm astonished has not been updated at this point. 2. Debuffs have a tendency to either be inconsequential and thus not worth casting Esuna, or fatal if not cleansed and thus must be Esuna'd.

If we updated the game's UI for buffs and debuffs to not be a hideous eyesore and actually communicate information to the player, we can resolve point 1 very quickly. Point 2 is something I've talked about before and gave examples as to other debuffs that provide players with a choice they get to make. For example, Infirmity is a debuff that greatly reduces the HP restored to a target. Using that for heal checks and giving the player the option to cleanse it with Esuna allows the player to choose what's most effective, removing it to heal effectively, or spend more cooldowns to heal through the debuff. If you strike the balance correctly, that could create more opportunities for healers to make choices during combat.

The more basic solution I've proposed if we're going to continue to leave debuffs largely out of sight and out of design space, then simply merge Esuna with your basic Cure, Physick, Benefic, and Diagnosis. You cut down on button bloat by combing two incredibly niche resources. It would still not be used all that often, but it's more efficient to a single action that can cover multiple niches rather than several buttons that each cover their own niches.