I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Renathras]

Well, unfortunately...

Yes, but this is true of one-button DPS as well. This is an argument against all change. I think MOST OF US recognize that healing in this game has to have a complete revamp from the foundation to the rafters. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think that's what all sober-minded appraisals have come down to. The problems are so fundamental, they require a complete shift to work. "We've had them for so long/grandfathered in" works just as well for one-button DPS rotations as well.

Most of your arguments in that paragraph were kind of opposing the idea of healing plans or preemptive - not just reactive - healing. That is, you're opposing the thing a lot of people like about the healing game. This is something that seems common with the "no more healing, more DPS" paradigm in general, but an opposition to actual HEALING gameplay. Healing shouldn't be "what can you weave in to immediately resolve damage and then get back to DPSing".

As for Tanks: Tanks aren't asking for more damage buttons right now, so trying to rope them in is a canard.

And we do listen...

I get that, really, but also:

1) This goes both ways for what you want, too,
2) You SAY they haven't thought things through, but many have.

Say what you will, you should know by now I've thought a lot of this through. Ad nauseam.

You can find...

Legitimately: Welcome back. I've honestly missed you, Ty. I know it doesn't always come across, but I do like hearing/seeing your thoughts and opinions on things. I'm glad you're back. /hugs

Your second point is in the right ballpark. It's why I propose and support and promote the 4 Healers Model all the time. I think it's a legitimate solution to that issue. But as to your specific point - it's why I note that if the change is so minor to be negligible, then the same people promoting it now will be the voices asking for it to not be negligible later. The whole "I do so much more work, I should be rewarded with greater output" starts to creep up. We already see it in some cases like SMN vs RDM, and some people in these very discussions have argued against that in the past.

As for if it makes it more forgiving, three notes:

1) That depends entirely on HOW it's implemented (e.g. I've proposed some before where the difference is negligible, and generally, been told the difference was too small and not enough "reward" for the "more work"),
2) This is a very mechanical view - many people like how their Jobs feel to play, so a mechanical argument of "you're only losing out on 0.001% damage" isn't going to help if they FEEL the Job feels bad to play post-change,
3) This doesn't actually require more buttons - like my WHM pitches didn't add a single button but all made for more involved rotations.

EDIT:

"Medica II Mage" refers to healers who doesn't know the correct answer to X mechanic---they only toss out Medica II/Succor/Asp Helios/E.Prog/whatever their comfort button are, then hope for the best. Literally only you who's so focused on this semantic & refuse to read between the line for whatever reason.

Because it's a caricature.

No serious person is going to bring up "Medica II Mage/Sylphie" in a conversation, just like no one should seriously bring up "DPS healer that never presses a single heal". Do these things both exist? Yes. But they aren't prevalent, and we shouldn't balance the game or make decisions based on these unicorns. Sylphies are in FAR shorter supply than people like you make them out to be.

All I was telling you was that people that spam only Medica II now would NOT be the people leaving the role if the role became spamming Media II. This is so obvious, I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point. It's like saying people that play BLM as "Ice Mages" would be the first to quit the Job if BLM was legitimately turned into Blizard-spam Mage. They'd be the LAST people leaving it.

Your argument is nonsensical.

If you mean they'd quit Savage raiding, maybe? But that's also inane; Medica 2 mages aren't doing Savage raiding RIGHT NOW. They can't quit a thing they aren't doing in the first place. Especially if the content was changed to literally accommodate their play style.

But this is a stupid side-show conversation.

You're literally arguing "If they change healing to where it is the way they already play, they'll all quit! But if we change healing to something they don't already do - more DPS buttons - they'll all totally keep doing it". I'm not even sure how to argue against something so divorced from...basic logic.

.

As to the last sentence: Because I've been called a Sylphie by people here - I think even you - more than once. Thus using myself as example disproves your argument. Granted, I'm not really a Sylphie, but that doesn't seem to matter to the people calling me one.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yes, but this is true of one-button DPS as well. This is an argument against all change. I think MOST OF US recognize that healing in this game has to have a complete revamp from the foundation to the rafters. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think that's what all sober-minded appraisals have come down to. The problems are so fundamental, they require a complete shift to work. "We've had them for so long/grandfathered in" works just as well for one-button DPS rotations as well.

Does it? Because as far as I can see, we've had the 'current DPS rotation' design since SHB (so, 3 years, 4 by the time 7.0 launches). By comparison, we've had OGCD healing tools to support our healing output since... ARR's relaunch, 10 years ago? Granted, we had less of them back then, but what we have now, where healing is almost entirely handled via OGCDs, is a natural evolution of that, because it's not very easy to add a new GCD healing tool with a niche that makes it feel good to use, compared to an OGCD one. Look how hard it is for the devs to work out how to add a new Kenki spender in place of Kaiten

If anything is 'grandfathered in' about the damage side of things, surely it's the ARR-SB era design?

1) That depends entirely on HOW it's implemented (e.g. I've proposed some before where the difference is negligible, and generally, been told the difference was too small and not enough "reward" for the "more work"),
2) This is a very mechanical view - many people like how their Jobs feel to play, so a mechanical argument of "you're only losing out on 0.001% damage" isn't going to help if they FEEL the Job feels bad to play post-change,

1: Was this 'not enough reward (potency)' or 'not enough reward (difference in gameplay from current design)' because the two are very different things. Energy Drain's continued existence and defense by some players should prove that it doesn't matter how small a potency gain 'optimization tricks' give us, the fact there's a difference is what motivates those optimizers to do what they do. You can stand on the boss's ass the whole fight and miss two positionals a minute as NIN (the Armor Crushes) totaling 80p loss per min. You'll still see NINs go for the side positional, because it's more damage.

2: I am not entirely sure you can judge 'how a job feels' if the design hasn't even been implemented. Just seeing a DOT in the kit and going 'ew a DOT' is not really a good reason to naysay the whole design. I can just as easily posit that the average player would be ecstatic to play my design, that after just one EX roulette with it, the increased mobility the instantcasts afford them, the more powerful feeling AOE burst, the 'exhilarating heal work' they can do using not only the new gaugespending heal tool but also the new shield-applying Lily spells, they will flock to the forums to say 'thank you Yoshida WHM is so good now' and all buy the Cruise Chaser on the Mogstation to show their appreciation

[Renathras]

If we want a real solution it has to work regardless of difficulty.

Yes but also no?

Question I've not seen an answer to - Roe may have offered one that I missed, but no one else has that I can tell - what level of DPS rotation WOULD IT TAKE for you to NEVER get bored with current MSQ difficulty content?

At the end of the day, nothing is going to work for all difficulties. Jonny Casual isn't going to be healing Ultimates and Leroy Ultimate isn't going to ever NOT be bored running MSQ content. There are some truths of our reality, and those are foundational ones.

This is false.

Nope, it's true.

It's something YOU don't care about, but other people DO care about. If we take a REALLY wide view, we could just say everything in the game is optional, but that isn't useful to have discussions. For it to be optional to me, the gap would have to be really small. Otherwise it's not optional, and I'm not the only person who feels that way. You saying it's optional doesn't alter that. And again, note my argument here:

One CAN argue that the benefits outweigh the costs. That's a valid line of discussion. One CANNOT insist that there are NO COSTS.

The point of this rhetorical "it doesn't matter/it's optional" trick is to shift the onus onto those resisting the change when the onus for change is on those arguing for it.

This is also true of the 4 Healers Model opposition. And the irony is, if people would give on that, they'd likely get most of what they want otherwise. But the insistence that no provision may be allowed for those who don't want what you're selling is why you get nothing.

Also, keep in mind that several people (who aren't me and oppose me on most arguments) have said the 4 Healers Model COULD work (just they want to be very specific about it), though most go back on that later. Generally it's a "Well, how about this?!" And then I say yes and they're like "Waitwait, no, that isn't...!", meaning they didn't think I'd say yes so it wasn't a serious compromise proposal, they just didn't realize how expansive the idea is.

The point I'm making here is twofold.

Honestly, I didn't find this post too disagreeable. (2) is a position I've held for a while. I've been attacked every time I've said it here, though. You won't be, fortunately, since you have the "right views".

Personally, I think a different solution is in order.

Does it?

Yes.

I mean, simple answer: Yes. Not trying to be snarky, that's just...the answer.

Or did you mean that a complete rework of healing in this game isn't necessary?

As for oGCD healing - in ARR, WHM had only one oGCD heal, and it was an emergency button/one with very specific planning requirements. SCH had 3 (realistically) oGCD heals per minute. [Caveat: You could shoehorn Embrace via Macros back then, though...but lots of people didn't actually do that. Still, this is a valid SCH argument, not a valid "we've all done this since ARR" argument; and we've had this conversation enough times before that you know this already.] So no, it wasn't really a thing we've used since ARR's relaunch 10 years ago. oGCD healing became really prevalent into SB after it being picked up by tip end raiders in HW. WHM didn't get in on the act until Lilies in ShB as shoehorned "oGCD" heals.

(SB era it had only Tetra since even then people were using Assize for the damage, not healing, and it didn't really have outright oGCD heal options since things like Plenary worked off of...ugh...CURE spells. Seriously, ANYONE who thinks WHM was better in SB, you're just wrong... <_< The second Lily incarnation a patch or three in was an improvement, but it was still not great, but the original "20% chance of getting a Lily when you cast CURE ONE"? Even back then, that was terrible.)

What we have NOW (and have since ShB for WHM, since SB for SCH and AST, and only since EW for SGE given it's only existed since EW) is the oGCD healing model. Making it a mere 2 years older, in practice, than the one button DPS rotation.

...also note AST had the "1111" spam since SB (if not HW; it never had a robust DPS suite) and WHM has had it since SB Aero was normalized. So the "one button" DPS "rotation" is as old (or older) than oGCD healing for WHM, and arguably as old as it for AST.

For SCH, your argument holds water. But even I advocate for SCH to have its SB state restored, so...

.

1) Then no change at all works, right? Or something so minimal as to be irrelevant. The problem, of course, is that it's pretty normal for people to say that to get what they want at first (camel nose in the tent), then say later "Well, now that we have this thing and are doing more work..." to demand more. And the problem is, it's not like we can sign some kind of contract or something to prevent that. And we have SCH with that system in the game RIGHT NOW and are being told it's not enough...so that kind of defeats your argument in that specific case, doesn't it?

2) Well, in some specific cases we can if the proposals are things we had before. For example "Make Dia 18/12 sec duration and re-add Aero 3" is a thing we've had before. I remember playing that in SB. So I can judge how it feels since I remember how it felt before. I can also say that I enjoyed PvP (this is relevant, hold on) before the EW changes in some cases. WHM specifically; I don't like not having a filler cure spell. So the "more burst but more limited heals; do more dps" doesn't feel as good to me. The more bursty DAMAGE spells with short CDs is nice (Misery and Purgation both feel good to use, Seraph not so much since it forces melee engagement), but Cure 2 being heavily limited to 2 charges and Cure 3 locked behind Seraph and Medica 2 being locked behind Purgation all feel really bad. I find so many times I need to heal ONE MORE person but Cure 2 is on CD and Cure 3 is either not up yet (since Seraph isn't) or isn't viable (since Seraph in that situation would result in death). It's then I wish for the old Cure 1 that PvP had before.

Further, it lends to an encounter design (which PvP is) of bursting people down rapidly and there being nothing people can do about it outside of VERY clutch maneuvers. So if we made PvE like this, it would mean even more massive spikes of damage that have to be rapidly healed, which leads to bad encounter design. How do I know this? Wrath of the Lich King into Cataclysm. WoW had this same problem, and in trying to "fix" it, they actually made it worse. It was the least fun healing in that game's history. No thank you. Making healing more like that would be less fun.

See? I DO speak from experience from time to time.

...since when are you most of us ? You're still not any authority after the last few books you wrote. Healing doesn't need a complete revamp, it needs simple changes within the game's confines that would drastically improve gameplay, no need to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not?

I'm referring to the conversations in the healer forum for months. Go read them. The majority of players there, if not everyone, seems to think that healing needs a total rework. That's not a Ren position. Roe, Sebazy, Semi, etc have all also advocated for it. This is the one thing you can't make me an island about, friend.

And who are you, new person to the conversation? I mean, everyone's view is valid, but coming on kind of jerkish with the "last few books you wrote" quip. Either make a point or don't, insults don't help your case.

Read again from Zeastria's post.

You can't reference something that hasn't happened yet.

It is accurate to say that people that enjoy DPSing on healers wouldn't like it if healing became only casting heals. That's a pretty fair argument, regardless of what you think. "You like X, so we're removing X" "Well, then I won't like it anymore" makes sense. "You like X so we're making it only X" "Great! I love X!" makes sense. "Those who like X won't like us giving them more X, but those who dislike X will be totally cool with more X" does not.

But this is, as I said before, a dumb side argument, so I'm not going to keep going on with trying to convince you to see reality.

(Oh, at first I thought you meant the dungeons one. Then I got to thinking about it. For my part, I've got close to 4,000, which is more than adequate "credentials" for a sample size. But yes, I wanted to be technically accurate.)

Also, I'm not the one saying that people can't adjust, amirite, or making caricatures about entire groups of people, lmao. That's what you're doing.

All I was saying is that people who only heal now wouldn't be upset at healers being converted to only healing, while people who like DPSing on healers would be upset by such a change. There's no rational counter argument there, since that's literally what the two sets of people want and what they'd be upset by. It'd be like if Tanks were told "You don't have agro anymore and you don't control the boss". The people that enjoy that would be upset while the people who don't mind being a budget DPS Job would be perfectly fine with it.

But again, dumb side argument, have whatever last word you want, I don't care to keep back and forth brick walling you on something so irrelevant and there's nothing else to really argue.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

You can't reference something that hasn't happened yet[...]

So 100% healing uptime already happened? lmao

Take this into account: 100% healing uptime is unrealistic in XIV. If you have more than adequate 'credentials' then you should've known this to be true no matter which era you've played the game as a healer. The most referenced 'hardest healing experience' seems to be some phases of O8S but lol even that still give the healers downtime to throw stones. They are asking something even more intense than this healing intensity to be brought down to normal content, and suddenly one could think "Sylphies" rose to fame to take up the job properly? I don't buy it lmao.

[Ivtrix]

So 100% healing uptime already happened? lmao

Take this into account: 100% healing uptime is unrealistic in XIV. If you have more than adequate 'credentials' then you should've known this to be true no matter which era you've played the game as a healer. The most referenced 'hardest healing experience' seems to be some phases of O8S but lol even that still give the healers downtime to throw stones. They are asking something even more intense than this healing intensity to be brought down to normal content, and suddenly one could think "Sylphies" rose to fame to take up the job properly? I don't buy it lmao.

hey credit to dice she tried in top and started a ton of drama LOL

[AnotherPerson]

So 100% healing uptime already happened? lmao

Take this into account: 100% healing uptime is unrealistic in XIV. If you have more than adequate 'credentials' then you should've known this to be true no matter which era you've played the game as a healer. The most referenced 'hardest healing experience' seems to be some phases of O8S but lol even that still give the healers downtime to throw stones. They are asking something even more intense than this healing intensity to be brought down to normal content, and suddenly one could think "Sylphies" rose to fame to take up the job properly? I don't buy it lmao.

I agree, even 60% is unrealistic in XIV's current playerbase. I'm just saying, there were people who struggled with Storm's Crown EX because it did more frequent raidwides than usual, and that's nowhere near even 60% healing uptime. There are healers who can get 100% DPS uptime in those fights and solely heal with oGCDs. Actual healing uptime is when you will naturally be supposed to use Medica II in the fight and refresh it in such a case. Healers will have a correct and proper rotation to juggle your oGCDs healing and keep track of those CDs to the second to actually handle the healing, or the party wipes, all while spending most of their time GCD healing + handling the fight mechanics. GCD healing is used primarily to make up for the lack of healing that oGCD healing cannot cover, not for healing mistakes. For people who want 80% healer uptime, Healing a mistake with a Cure II will be a luxury, and you're naturally going to have to forcibly heal through different methods to make up for the lack of potency (ex: substituting 1 of the 3 raptures preplanned in Plenary with a Cure III instead because Medica II is required to be ticking and you lose more upfront potency by overwriting it). That's literally what people mean when they want actual "healer uptime" -- where you can't afford to be spending GCDs to DPS because your core gameplay is to heal large amounts of unavoidable damage primarily. Those oGCDs are all not optional like it is in current content where you can reduce a big portion of your DPS uptime for more GCD healing.

In hindsight, the existing concept behind Slyphies is not particularly bad per se. All Healers could be slyphies when they do new content because they are more focused on learning the fight and responding to mechanics / keeping the party alive rather than DPSing, but DPS healers are basically the ones who gotten comfortable with seeing & responding to the damage and can start DPSing after. The problem is that the players that are referred to as "Slyphies" never graduate from that mindset to do efficient healing to find space to DPS, and that's why they're generally struggling when they start actually have to heal in large amounts where each healing skill has to be used to its fullest. They never developed a cognitive load to be placed in a situation for it as they're used to the current ease of difficulty. Increasing the requirements directly screws them over because they're not like the DPS healers who do efficient healing so they have spare cognitive load for DPS rotation.

Now people expect them to actually be efficient at healing AND be able to keep healer uptime to the point there's very little room for error? No matter how much I could want healer uptime, it's just unrealistic in the current design space for healers.

[Teno]

Yes, but this is true of one-button DPS as well. This is an argument against all change. I think MOST OF US recognize that healing in this game has to have a complete revamp from the foundation to the rafters. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think that's what all sober-minded appraisals have come down to. The problems are so fundamental, they require a complete shift to work. "We've had them for so long/grandfathered in" works just as well for one-button DPS rotations as well.[/hb]

...since when are you most of us ? You're still not any authority after the last few books you wrote. Healing doesn't need a complete revamp, it needs simple changes within the game's confines that would drastically improve gameplay, no need to reinvent the wheel.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]You're literally arguing "If they change healing to where it is the way they already play, they'll all quit! But if we change healing to something they don't already do - more DPS buttons - they'll all totally keep doing it". I'm not even sure how to argue against something so divorced from...basic logic.[...]

Read again from Zeastria's post.

I was merely questioning what was the logic behind 'making 100% uptime heal will make dps healer quit' because according to my own account & couple other's, it's usually the opposite: 100% heal uptime healer struggles & realizes how hard current healing requirement is & in its simplest way---choose to bail. Will they learn eventually? Maybe, maybe not (If they do, they're officially not Sylphies anymore ). But what makes they think they will when Abyssos have proven again that harder heal requirement has been one of the part in play that caused that healer shortage, and what makes they think this will not happen in casual content too when a good deal of healer population at that time was already babied somewhat by Asphodelos' tier---the same way that modern healer population in DF who has been babied by the lack of nuance & at some point even borderline optional? (They haven't answered it yet but oh well :shrug: I mean they did, but they misinterpret follow up reply so, whatever.)

Good side of 'Green DPSes' on the other hand more than willing & capable to adjust accordingly if they are need to, but of course I guess they're filthy dps healer cause of that one bad green dps amirite? lmao

Also, your credential doesn't match what you're saying here. You're not going to convince me that Sylphie is in a short supply when the fact is my shorter but more concentrated & doubly plentiful DF experiences has been rich with Sylphies who absolutely fumbles through their buttons.

Good thing you deleted that Lifer III rebuttal cause I was about bonk you for that -.-