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  1. #911
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aravell View Post
    The thing is, adding anything at all would make the current healer dps rotations more complex. But what some people seem to ignore is that complexity is a spectrum ranging from WAR/DNC to BLM/MNK, the problem is that people who vehemently oppose healer dps buttons always immediately jump to assume that we want the BLM/MNK end of the spectrum.
    People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigore View Post
    Hmm, I haven't done Savage or Extreme very much, so I am unaware of how many times you need to hold onto the instant cast for movement reasons on a later mechanic. This looks like a ... controversial decision that needs a consensus since Recon even suggested the merge in the thread.

    The other suggestion for Medica 1 to merge with Medica 2 would work for me. I mostly only use Medica 1 when I don't have Medica 2 below level 50.

    I do like Recon's suggestion to change Freecure to proc from Stone casts instead of Cure casts. Although such a trait would not be necessary if we use your WHM suggestion, Roe. Most of the time, I don't see objections to your suggestions.
    It is admittedly quite a niche situation, but as Rein mentions, holding Lilies for Inviolate Purgation in P7S was helpful. From my own experience, I was thinking of J-Waves in TEA, where I would use one Lily to heal at the start to keep the timer ticking, then move to MP costing heals, going from Med2 for the regen, to Medica1, to Med1 with PI, to Rapture to prevent overcap, to Cure3 with Thin Air for zero MP cost. Being able to juggle two independent resource costs is something I would not really like to see removed, as a merge of Rapture and Medica1 would do. However...

    The reason I suggest Medica1 upgrade via trait to Medica2, is simply the potencies. Medica1 (after lv85 with the trait) is 400p. Medica2 is 250, plus 150 per tick for 5 ticks (totalling 1000). This means that, after only a single tick, Medica2 is equal potency to Medica1, with 4 ticks left to burn, for only 100MP more. Might as well make the trait, have Medica2 be 400p base potency, and 4 ticks of 150 (so 12s duration instead of the current 15). Additionally, I think a good idea would be for SE to move the 1-50 CLASS skills (which includes Medica2, as it is the CNJ 50 skill, where Benediction is the WHM 50 skill) down to the 1-30 levelling experience. This way, the early game has more buttons available to players who get synced, certain jobs get key mechanics sooner (eg MRD would have Storm's Eye, and learn about it's buff management, no later than 30, whereas atm it gets it at 50, meaning it has to use it's AOE move in singletarget to apply the buff, very scuffed), some jobs get AOE much earlier, etc. It also opens some room in the 30-50 bracket of levels for some additional skills to be learned (eg if we move some 'Job actions' to 'Class actions' and rescale them, eg DRG's Doom Spike AOE)

    TLDR, I'd move the trait upgrading Medica to Medica2 down to 30 at the latest. Potency of the regen can also be adjusted if needed (eg make it 300p on cast, plus 100 per tick for 12s, totalling 700) and increase it's power at later levels. As for FreeCure, I wouldn't mind it moving to Stone. However, if I had my way, FreeCure would also change. After all, if we have Cure1 trait-up to Cure2, then FreeCure's effect becomes 'when you cast Cure2, you have a chance your next Cure2 is free', which sounds like it might actually get some use in high-heal-pressure scenarios. But yes, do the trait upgrade, and then just make Stone AND Cure2 proc it. We don't want to use Cure2, so we might as well make the times where you DO have to use it, less punishing (costing only damage, instead of damage+MP).

    As for my suggestions, thanks. I notice that a fair amount of people seem to agree with, if nothing else, at least my stance that 'something needs to change'. As a great example of what I mean by 'design space opens up for the devs to work with' re: my design ideas, literally just came up with this: you could have Stone/Glare have, say, 20% chance to proc FreeCure. But, the cast of Quake (the empowered form of Stone/Glare after using the gauge spender) could be guaranteed to proc FreeCure

    edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bole View Post
    I just noticed that while I was unsubbed they buffed every heal’s radius except the one whose niche was the big radius. I get the hate for fey blessing now - when they first created them, fey blessing and consolation were the only heals SCH had with the big radius. I don’t think these devs play their own game.
    SCH is wild, it's got some stuff at 15, some at 20 and some at 30y, it's all over the place. Meanwhile, SGE is able to hit someone standing in the next instance over with Kera/Physis/Panhaima/Holos, and WHM's Temperance being 50y is able to reach so far it can actually reach the other add platform in E8
    (0)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 01-27-2024 at 12:37 PM.

  2. #912
    Player
    Maltothoris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    743
    Character
    Malto Thoris
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Ye in patch 6.4 they buffed the radius of many of the ogcds moves like Asylum and Soil because they keep making the hitboxes bigger and bigger to where buffs were not hitting people ala top p3. It's annoying cause it takes away some of that player agency.
    (1)

  3. #913
    Player
    Rein_eon_Osborne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Shadowflare - Ward Miasma II, Plot Broil IV
    Posts
    3,957
    Character
    Mira Clearweaver
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    I will never forgive them for turning Earthly Star into Earthly Galaxy.
    (5)

  4. #914
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,682
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Earthly star is easily the most egregious of the 4 considering its power and the fact that it’s literally a DPS gain to use so you are always dropping it
    (3)

  5. #915
    Player
    Tigore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    345
    Character
    Tigore Collson
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Sorry if I spoke a bit too passively, Roe. The reason I was brainstorming on Medica 1 and Cure 3 is more so to design a spammable mana AoE heal while the Medica 2 HoT is present. Having both Cure 3 and Medica 1 is admittedly redundant with slight differences in healing power, mana usage and range. I was suggesting Cure 3 essentially become the new spammable AoE heal for casuals to use if Medica 1 will be replaced with Medica 2. Cure 3 might need to be to have around a 30 yalm radius for everyone getting the heals just like how Medica 1 works. If necessary, the range of the target you can select could be nerfed to compensate to about 10 yalms? This could mean that Cure 3 might need to be bumped to around level 30 or under to match with the same suggested time Medica upgrades to Medica 2.
    (0)

  6. #916
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    As an aside, I will never not be irked by the use of “Medica” as WHM’s AOE instead of Cure II being your AOE, like how it generally works for your caster DPS (Fire II, Veraero/Verthunder II, Miasma II…) It would look and feel so much cleaner if Cure was your single target, Cure II your AOE, with Cure III and Cure IV being your single target and AOE (respectively) for heals with some sort of additional element, be that regens atop your heals or maybe even something else.

    It almost feels like a quiet insult. “DPS players will be able to recognize the difference between spells with the same name but different ranks and effects, but healers aren’t skilled enough to recognize the difference.”
    (1)

  7. #917
    Player Mithron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    699
    Character
    Mithron Scarlet
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is
    When I think about how I'd like to picture more complex healer DPS rotations, RDM and DNC are always the two jobs that come to my mind. I don't think all four healers need to be proc based, but it's definitely a style that would work for one or some of them since it requires little commitment and allows for spot healing at just about any time.
    (3)

  8. #918
    Player
    Aravell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    2,012
    Character
    J'thaldi Rhid
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is
    I've said before that current SMN is unacceptable for a DPS job, but it would be a pretty good playstyle for WHM. 3 stances that do different things, WHM also has 3 elements to use. The rotation is also simple enough that you can break to heal if needed. Something similar to DNC would probably fit AST. SCH can return to DoT mage.
    (3)

  9. #919
    Player
    Colt47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,809
    Character
    Kan Himaa
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aravell View Post
    I've said before that current SMN is unacceptable for a DPS job, but it would be a pretty good playstyle for WHM. 3 stances that do different things, WHM also has 3 elements to use. The rotation is also simple enough that you can break to heal if needed. Something similar to DNC would probably fit AST. SCH can return to DoT mage.
    Due to how healing works and the sheer number of uncontrolled variables, the better systems for damage dealing are going to always lean towards priority systems that do not require dealing with combinations. Summoners rotation is unplayable on a healer and would only work in savage or a very controlled environment, which doesn't exist the majority of the time.

    The other problem is that SE is juggling between healers not needing to dps and healers needing to dps. If healers are required to DPS then they cease to be healers entirely and are just a version of dps that heal other people with OGCDs. They could literally copy paste the pvp rotation for whm into the game and call it a day with some modifications.

    What I want is healer dps to be optional, and for high end content to basically let the healer be the safety measure for getting the group through a fight. But then we end up with what we got now where the fight is a massive series of body checks where the healer has to get pressed into a corner and people would demand them to dps if they had any modicum of optional time to work with.

    I'd rather just have healers take on the affliction warlock stance, where they are doing something similar to BRD and have a lot of time to reapply the DoTs. It takes minimal buttons, no combinations necessary to get damage output, they keep the glare or whatever main attack they got, and it grants more time to do optional things since the base Dps is just keeping dots up (AOE or otherwise). However, I believe they'd have to increase the debuff limit on bosses to make that work in Raids which is why they limit the DoTs to one per job at the most.
    (0)

  10. #920
    Player
    IDontPetLalas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    1,419
    Character
    Alinne Seamont
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    I was writing a rather lengthy reply, however in essence it boils down to no, I would disagree that there are a "sheer number of uncontrolled variables" in this game given that damage and mechanics are predictable, those "uncontrolled variables" are essentially your party members, which can to some extent be controlled for if you are in a static.

    Having not played WoW (where I assume your reference comes from) I am not familiar with your reference in depth, however I am familiar with Bard, and I will say that I definitely would not want all healers maintaining multiple dots based upon your analysis. SCH used to have them, I would welcome their return on SCH, let each healer have their own identity.
    (3)

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