I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Mithron]

I’m assuming he meant “wow even on P12S” not “this is only a P12 problem”

Imagine what it looks like for non-relevant content

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Imagine what it looks like for non-relevant content

Replace all those GCD heals with more Glaroilficosis. Cut off some of those oGCD casts too.

[ty_taurus]

Imagine what it looks like for non-relevant content

Gotcha, though considering P10 has Harrowing Hell, that's also a feat worth referencing in this conversation.

[ty_taurus]

Interesting and mildly relevant topic point:

Healing Coop Azhdaha in Genshin with characters like Kokomi was an absolute blast. As soon as I got the likes of Furina the fun was gone.

Why? Even though I could still heal plenty enough on Kokomi, positioning and mobility was supremely challenging, if I dropped my Jellyfish in a bad spot I wouldn't be able to move it for a good long time leaving a gap in healing long enough that anyone eating the dot would likely die, so I had to plan and adjust on the fly around unpredictable teammates. The fight put me under pressure and made me pay attention.

Meanwhile Furina is a lot like a current day XIV healer in that she effectively has no real limit (At least not that can be tested by the majority of content assuming a vaguely competent level of play) nor restrictions to her healing. She can flip the switch to heal at anytime and she can reposition and refocus the healing at anytime. Even though her actual healing output isn't actually any higher than my Kokomi, she completely nullified the pressure the fight put me under.

Whilst yes, the healing requirements in modern day content are a problem, it's not the only problem, not by far.

To be fair, Furina's healing comes at the cost of her Hydro application whereas Kokomi's does not.

[ForsakenRoe]

The thing is, adding anything at all would make the current healer dps rotations more complex. But what some people seem to ignore is that complexity is a spectrum ranging from WAR/DNC to BLM/MNK, the problem is that people who vehemently oppose healer dps buttons always immediately jump to assume that we want the BLM/MNK end of the spectrum.

People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is

Hmm, I haven't done Savage or Extreme very much, so I am unaware of how many times you need to hold onto the instant cast for movement reasons on a later mechanic. This looks like a ... controversial decision that needs a consensus since Recon even suggested the merge in the thread.

The other suggestion for Medica 1 to merge with Medica 2 would work for me. I mostly only use Medica 1 when I don't have Medica 2 below level 50.

I do like Recon's suggestion to change Freecure to proc from Stone casts instead of Cure casts. Although such a trait would not be necessary if we use your WHM suggestion, Roe. Most of the time, I don't see objections to your suggestions.

It is admittedly quite a niche situation, but as Rein mentions, holding Lilies for Inviolate Purgation in P7S was helpful. From my own experience, I was thinking of J-Waves in TEA, where I would use one Lily to heal at the start to keep the timer ticking, then move to MP costing heals, going from Med2 for the regen, to Medica1, to Med1 with PI, to Rapture to prevent overcap, to Cure3 with Thin Air for zero MP cost. Being able to juggle two independent resource costs is something I would not really like to see removed, as a merge of Rapture and Medica1 would do. However...

The reason I suggest Medica1 upgrade via trait to Medica2, is simply the potencies. Medica1 (after lv85 with the trait) is 400p. Medica2 is 250, plus 150 per tick for 5 ticks (totalling 1000). This means that, after only a single tick, Medica2 is equal potency to Medica1, with 4 ticks left to burn, for only 100MP more. Might as well make the trait, have Medica2 be 400p base potency, and 4 ticks of 150 (so 12s duration instead of the current 15). Additionally, I think a good idea would be for SE to move the 1-50 CLASS skills (which includes Medica2, as it is the CNJ 50 skill, where Benediction is the WHM 50 skill) down to the 1-30 levelling experience. This way, the early game has more buttons available to players who get synced, certain jobs get key mechanics sooner (eg MRD would have Storm's Eye, and learn about it's buff management, no later than 30, whereas atm it gets it at 50, meaning it has to use it's AOE move in singletarget to apply the buff, very scuffed), some jobs get AOE much earlier, etc. It also opens some room in the 30-50 bracket of levels for some additional skills to be learned (eg if we move some 'Job actions' to 'Class actions' and rescale them, eg DRG's Doom Spike AOE)

TLDR, I'd move the trait upgrading Medica to Medica2 down to 30 at the latest. Potency of the regen can also be adjusted if needed (eg make it 300p on cast, plus 100 per tick for 12s, totalling 700) and increase it's power at later levels. As for FreeCure, I wouldn't mind it moving to Stone. However, if I had my way, FreeCure would also change. After all, if we have Cure1 trait-up to Cure2, then FreeCure's effect becomes 'when you cast Cure2, you have a chance your next Cure2 is free', which sounds like it might actually get some use in high-heal-pressure scenarios. But yes, do the trait upgrade, and then just make Stone AND Cure2 proc it. We don't want to use Cure2, so we might as well make the times where you DO have to use it, less punishing (costing only damage, instead of damage+MP).

As for my suggestions, thanks. I notice that a fair amount of people seem to agree with, if nothing else, at least my stance that 'something needs to change'. As a great example of what I mean by 'design space opens up for the devs to work with' re: my design ideas, literally just came up with this: you could have Stone/Glare have, say, 20% chance to proc FreeCure. But, the cast of Quake (the empowered form of Stone/Glare after using the gauge spender) could be guaranteed to proc FreeCure

edit:

I just noticed that while I was unsubbed they buffed every heal’s radius except the one whose niche was the big radius. I get the hate for fey blessing now - when they first created them, fey blessing and consolation were the only heals SCH had with the big radius. I don’t think these devs play their own game.

SCH is wild, it's got some stuff at 15, some at 20 and some at 30y, it's all over the place. Meanwhile, SGE is able to hit someone standing in the next instance over with Kera/Physis/Panhaima/Holos, and WHM's Temperance being 50y is able to reach so far it can actually reach the other add platform in E8

[Mithron]

People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is

When I think about how I'd like to picture more complex healer DPS rotations, RDM and DNC are always the two jobs that come to my mind. I don't think all four healers need to be proc based, but it's definitely a style that would work for one or some of them since it requires little commitment and allows for spot healing at just about any time.

[Aravell]

People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is

I've said before that current SMN is unacceptable for a DPS job, but it would be a pretty good playstyle for WHM. 3 stances that do different things, WHM also has 3 elements to use. The rotation is also simple enough that you can break to heal if needed. Something similar to DNC would probably fit AST. SCH can return to DoT mage.

[Colt47]

I've said before that current SMN is unacceptable for a DPS job, but it would be a pretty good playstyle for WHM. 3 stances that do different things, WHM also has 3 elements to use. The rotation is also simple enough that you can break to heal if needed. Something similar to DNC would probably fit AST. SCH can return to DoT mage.

Due to how healing works and the sheer number of uncontrolled variables, the better systems for damage dealing are going to always lean towards priority systems that do not require dealing with combinations. Summoners rotation is unplayable on a healer and would only work in savage or a very controlled environment, which doesn't exist the majority of the time.

The other problem is that SE is juggling between healers not needing to dps and healers needing to dps. If healers are required to DPS then they cease to be healers entirely and are just a version of dps that heal other people with OGCDs. They could literally copy paste the pvp rotation for whm into the game and call it a day with some modifications.

What I want is healer dps to be optional, and for high end content to basically let the healer be the safety measure for getting the group through a fight. But then we end up with what we got now where the fight is a massive series of body checks where the healer has to get pressed into a corner and people would demand them to dps if they had any modicum of optional time to work with.

I'd rather just have healers take on the affliction warlock stance, where they are doing something similar to BRD and have a lot of time to reapply the DoTs. It takes minimal buttons, no combinations necessary to get damage output, they keep the glare or whatever main attack they got, and it grants more time to do optional things since the base Dps is just keeping dots up (AOE or otherwise). However, I believe they'd have to increase the debuff limit on bosses to make that work in Raids which is why they limit the DoTs to one per job at the most.

[IDontPetLalas]

I was writing a rather lengthy reply, however in essence it boils down to no, I would disagree that there are a "sheer number of uncontrolled variables" in this game given that damage and mechanics are predictable, those "uncontrolled variables" are essentially your party members, which can to some extent be controlled for if you are in a static.

Having not played WoW (where I assume your reference comes from) I am not familiar with your reference in depth, however I am familiar with Bard, and I will say that I definitely would not want all healers maintaining multiple dots based upon your analysis. SCH used to have them, I would welcome their return on SCH, let each healer have their own identity.

[Colt47]

I was writing a rather lengthy reply, however in essence it boils down to no, I would disagree that there are a "sheer number of uncontrolled variables" in this game given that damage and mechanics are predictable, those "uncontrolled variables" are essentially your party members, which can to some extent be controlled for if you are in a static.

Having not played WoW (where I assume your reference comes from) I am not familiar with your reference in depth, however I am familiar with Bard, and I will say that I definitely would not want all healers maintaining multiple dots based upon your analysis. SCH used to have them, I would welcome their return on SCH, let each healer have their own identity.

The weakness of FFXIV is the very fact they aren't designing things to be organic in how they relate to one another. It isn't adding identity to a caster to add a mechanic that hits multiple times in a row to specific fights, and then have to waste an entire skill slot making a skill that counters it. Identity comes from the look and feel of the job, and to that extent it is just a skin over a specific role.

If someone wanted to make a regen healer and a big spells healer, those healers are going to be situationally better than one another. If I build a party system for four characters and a healer has to be included from either pool, the content has to work for both regen and big spells healers. If I make an 8 man dungeon that requires two healers, I have to make that 8 man dungeon function for all combination of healers.

If all the content has to work for both healers, what is the bloody point of having a regen healer and a big spells healer? Identity? So one is always going to be an enfeebled mess of a job while the other is the one everyone uses depending on the fight?

In FFXIV shield healers and pure healers are the same. The only difference is that one is absolutely worse in every way to the other and is only playable because the encounters hit harder than the total HP of the people running the high end content. But since they can't adhere to this in all content, the pure healers still prove superior all the time because shields =/= healing. Why is DRK so bad in leveling roulette and okay in end game? Because the bugger can't self heal to make up for the deficit of healing power the shield healers have compared to the pure healers. The only way to avoid the weakness is to make the content easy enough that this isn't a problem.

And FYI I am asking people to think about what the point would be to have a strictly worse option in healing in a game if it were put intentionally in the game. Despite the fact that people might think this is some mistake on the designers part, there is a reason originally to do this.