I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Shurrikhan]

The idea solution to Esuna is simply make debuffs more consistent. There are a couple of issues with Esuna as it stands: 1. The UI is in dire need of a modernization to make cleansable debuffs more visible. A hair-thin, tiny blue line above an already tiny debuff icon is something I'm astonished has not been updated at this point. 2. Debuffs have a tendency to either be inconsequential and thus not worth casting Esuna, or fatal if not cleansed and thus must be Esuna'd.

I feel like we ought to get the UI improvements regardless of whether Esuna even continues to exist or not, but...

I think we've been down this tangent before, but I honestly wouldn't mind if Esuna was removed, if it's only ever used in the sense it is now, mostly because when it has power to be worth the button, it frequently makes healing debuffs less interesting than if it didn't exist. Sadly, those issues are only compounded if you attach an additional 400-500 potency of healing atop it the "removes mechanic" effect, and keeping its value in check then requires having either (A) still having many mechanics be immune to Esuna or (B) reworking Esuna altogether.

If I had to keep it, though, I would just have virtually all debuffs cause enough damage over their duration to be worth at least some 1200 potency of healing to counter, so you never have any that are an outright waste to deal with via Esuna.

As for Repose... that gets into a whole thing with rehauling Enmity which in turn would ask for a replacement for Esuna that calls for an elemental system of sorts (set on fire -> douse with water; wet and therefore susceptible to ice and lightning -> dry with wind or fire; poisoned -> increase the afflicted ally's Resistance because it has a flat damage reduction component, which is then far more powerful against quickly-ticking DoTs; etc., etc.), so I'll save that for another time.

[ASkellington]

The idea solution to Esuna is simply make debuffs more consistent. There are a couple of issues with Esuna as it stands: 1. The UI is in dire need of a modernization to make cleansable debuffs more visible. A hair-thin, tiny blue line above an already tiny debuff icon is something I'm astonished has not been updated at this point. 2. Debuffs have a tendency to either be inconsequential and thus not worth casting Esuna, or fatal if not cleansed and thus must be Esuna'd.

I feel like Esuna has more problems than just that. In addition to debuffs not being worth the cleanse, we also can't choose which debuffs we'd want to cleanse (Pacify/Silence over a DoT for instance) and Esuna both having a short cast and recast timer to me makes debuffs more of a chore and less of a mechanic.

"Oh you have a debuff? Press of a button its gone. Never to be seen again" sort of deal.

[ForsakenRoe]

As for Repose... that gets into a whole thing with rehauling Enmity which in turn would ask for a replacement for Esuna that calls for an elemental system of sorts (set on fire -> douse with water; wet and therefore susceptible to ice and lightning -> dry with wind or fire; poisoned -> increase the afflicted ally's Resistance because it has a flat damage reduction component, which is then far more powerful against quickly-ticking DoTs; etc., etc.), so I'll save that for another time.

If they're going to keep Repose, I'd give it an additional effect of '10% damage down for X seconds' (balance as needed), which would also affect bosses (the sleep would not). You wouldn't spam it because it's a massive damage loss (since Repose is a GCD), but it allows for a party that is lacking defensive capability to cover for that. Harrowing Hell with DRK/GNB is way harder because neither can contribute their 90s, they're magic only and the damage coming in is physical. But with this, you'd at least be able to cover part of HH with another 10% you wouldn't normally have in that comp. It also gives WHM access to another mit tool, even if it does cost a GCD to use it. Maybe you could give WHM specifically some kind of interplay between it and Blood Lily so that it's not a damage loss for WHM specifically (not much thought put into this so it's probably not balanced)

You know, it's funny you should say that...



This was from ARR White Mage, not that this invalidates anything you're saying of course, I just think it's really interesting and kinda funny.

Another example of 'strangely worded tooltip catches players unaware', possibly. You're right that it's funny though.

[ty_taurus]

Another example of 'strangely worded tooltip catches players unaware', possibly. You're right that it's funny though.

I looked into the cast times as well, but it did mean that Swiftcast Holy was a viable optimization strategy that most people never realized. Again, the MP is the real question, but ethers were also commonly used back then too.

[ForsakenRoe]

Looking into it more (cos curiosity), are those tooltips from like, base ARR? When they'd just relaunched the game and were probably more concerned with getting the game out the door before they went under, rather than the minutiae of potencies

Mar 15 2015 and Dec 29 2015 scrapes of consolegameswiki respectively:

So the previously listed ones were from before PVP even came into the game which was in 2.1? So whatever possible swiftcast optimizations existed were apparently as short-lived as WAR's original 'low mitigation, high lifesteal' identity. Well, I guess it got to have the lifesteal anyway huh

Anyway, yeh, it's funny as hell to see ARR goofy jank out of context. Like Venomous Bite was originally 9s until a trait made it 18s at later levels. Now it's just 45s from the get go. Or the old stupid 'Spirits Within scales it's damage based on your HP level', on a TANK of all things.

[ty_taurus]

Looking into it more (cos curiosity), are those tooltips from like, base ARR? When they'd just relaunched the game and were probably more concerned with getting the game out the door before they went under, rather than the minutiae of potencies

Mar 15 2015 and Dec 29 2015 scrapes of consolegameswiki respectively:

So the previously listed ones were from before PVP even came into the game which was in 2.1? So whatever possible swiftcast optimizations existed were apparently as short-lived as WAR's original 'low mitigation, high lifesteal' identity. Well, I guess it got to have the lifesteal anyway huh

Anyway, yeh, it's funny as hell to see ARR goofy jank out of context. Like Venomous Bite was originally 9s until a trait made it 18s at later levels. Now it's just 45s from the get go. Or the old stupid 'Spirits Within scales it's damage based on your HP level', on a TANK of all things.

I don't remember what date I picked. I think it was during 2014, but it's been a few days.

[Shurrikhan]

Looking into it more (cos curiosity), are those tooltips from like, base ARR? When they'd just relaunched the game and were probably more concerned with getting the game out the door before they went under, rather than the minutiae of potencies

Yeah, in 2.0, WHM had the highest "in 20 seconds" burst damage in the game, but it got nerfed by 2.1, iirc. Then nerfed again.

Or the old stupid 'Spirits Within scales it's damage based on your HP level', on a TANK of all things.

Spirits Within put out 877.5 relative potency per minute. Given that with its HP scaling, if it was getting at least 67% effective damage, PLD's ppm was higher than WAR's and with it getting less than 67%, it fell short of WAR's... I was fine with that, actually. It gave you an occasional reason to hold it or to apply higher mitigation density just before it'd come up.

Oh no, damage-mitigation interaction on a tank?! ...Isn't that what most veteran tanks bemoaned losing (in place of just actually balancing our defensive options) when Shadowbringers shallowed out tanking? /shrug

Also, a BLM skill-VFX mod that might be of interest as a aesthetic mock-up of a WHM with a more fleshed out offensive kit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g0UTNgW3s

[Renathras]

Thank you for once again putting words in my mouth.

At what point did I ever say that it was a DPS loss?

Uh...

As noted above: I remember a week or so ago when I suggested adding Holy to the single-target rotation and you insisted against it, pointing out Holy is an AOE ability and is for AOE, and how you dislike that Misery, an AOE ability, is used in single-target rotations.

...Aero 3 is AOE. To show consistency with your stated viewpoint, shouldn't you be arguing against it's addition OR insisting it be a DPS loss over Glare so that it won't be used in single-target, considering you dislike Misery being part of the single-target rotation and oppose Holy being part of it? I'm not asking this as a gotcha, more just noting an inconsistency.

I also find it odd how anyone would see Aero 3 and go "man, that's some depth right there!"

...where in that quote is the phrase "DPS loss"?

Why would you ask me what point you said it was a DPS loss and accuse me of putting words in your mouth when...I didn't say DPS loss in that reply to you? o.O

...If it comes back as an AOE I don't think I'd like it other than it gives WHM another AOE attack (which I would argue all healers should get anyway) but its whatever. As was your rotation.

Would I rather have Aero 3 or your rotation? Probably Aero 3...

In reply to "...would there not be a large outcry of 'well what about Aero 3???'":

I would wager there would be.

I would also wager the response would be "ok, SCH and AST got some depth to make their down time less boring (old SB designs) why can't WHM and SGE have that?"

I...don't understand you, man.

When I argue for using AOE abilities for single-target rotations, you oppose the idea, even when I point out we already do (Misery, Assize). When someone else argues for Aero 3 (an AOE DoT), you support them, until I point out it was an AOE but that I support it being readded, then suddenly you oppose it. But that you oppose my other idea even more. Maybe you aren't just being anti-Ren contrarian, but it seems oddly like it.

As I said in that thread and others, different people like different types of Jobs. You've said you prefer AST, so I think it may just be no change to WHM that keeps WHM at all like WHM would be something you'd really like, meaning you probably aren't the target audience of WHM and are the target audience of something else like AST instead.

Tough? I don't care. That is, I'm not being dismissive, I mean I'm not somehow offended by your feelings. What I have said is the above: Not every Job is for everyone/not everyone will click with all Jobs. I don't think that's controversial or mean to say. If someone said to me "You probably aren't the target audience for BLM or AST", I wouldn't be offended, I'd agree with them. Those Jobs aren't for me, but they ARE for other people who click with and enjoy them.

But anyway, this is neither here nor there and is just a side conversation anyway. Sorry to everyone for dragging it out.

I will only say:

1) WHM does struggle with button bloat, the issue is that ALL HEALERS do. That's not a good thing. SGE does equal with WHM, AST and SCH are just even worse.

2) Personally, I'd prefer a AOE rotation that is just part of the single target one. For example, in a hypothetical world where every third Glare generated an empowered Holy AND Aero 3 were readded to the game, the single target rotation would be Dia, Aero 3, Glare Glare Glare, Holy (with the DoTs moving about a bit since different durations, and Solace/Rapture sprinkled about as needed, and Misery used every minute or so), with the AOE version shifting to Aero 3, Holyspam (with, again, Solace/Rapture/Misery as applicable). While not every Job does this, a lot have a completely different AOE rotation which is just kinda...there 90% of the game since you aren't using AOE. Having it just be a slightly simpler version of the single-target rotation would be fine by me, since it both reduces button bloat overall (less buttons "dead" in 90% of content) while also allowing an increase in complexity of the single-target rotation while also being an easy transition to "step down" to for AOE situations.

Misery is an AoE. Does that make it apropos to use in single-target rotation?
...
Personal preference and such, but I just don't see why specifically forbidding AoEs from having a place in ST rotation would be a helpful design principle.

Agreed.

It'd be one thing if it didn't exist otherwise, but it already does. Confetior/Swords/oGCDs (PLD), Primal Rend (WAR), Chainsaw (MCH), Verholy/flare/Scorch/Resolution (RDM), Demi-Egis/Primal Summons/all Astral Flows (SMN), Misery/Assize (WHM itself), Earthy Star/Macrocosmos (AST), Plegma/Pneuma/Toxicon (SGE); we already have plenty of cases of buttons that deal AOE damage still being part of the single-target rotation/damage gains/optimization options. WHM already has two abilities, Misery and Assize both, that do this.

EDIT:

Pls explain how WHM suffers from button bloat

I have before.

I can again, if you promise not to be as dismissive about it as before.

[Supersnow845]

Pls explain how WHM suffers from button bloat

[Supersnow845]

I have before.

I can again, if you promise not to be as dismissive about it as before.

I mean I’m happy to hear your answer but I will reserve judgment till I hear it, I will at least promise not to be actively hostile but I can’t guarantee I will remotely agree with it