I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Nizzi]

But I feel like building on the identity Scholar has already tried to set out for itself will work better than forcing it into a SB Summoner shaped hole (which we all know is what the new caster will be lol)

Where are you getting this idea that SCH has "tried to set out" for a "utility buff/debuff" identity versus it's historic FFXIV and FFXI identity of a job that uses DoTs in combat? Expedient and Chain Stratagem?

[Katish]

Again, and I will repeat it for the umpteenth time...
DPS healers have already been proven to work with BLU mage healer in the current system, my BLU healer get this... has 14 (and sometimes more) DPS buttons... and I push them on cooldown while also healing, funny isn't it? Though no one is asking for that complexity...they just want something that isn't 1111111111. So about healer dps complexity it would not be complex at all even if they added 5 new dps buttons for each healer (which would be a start).

Raising fight heal requirements won't solve a thing when downtime is concerned, because for one: there will always be skilled enough healers that will always have downtime, and for two: gear scores will level that off to the point healers might not be needed as healing required levels off when gear score increases to the point we become replaceable if not already. And for three, the devs would have to rework every single piece of content in the past (and I don't see them doing so, given it would be a shock for newer players and would require more time than I see them caring to even give out.)

I definitely am a broken record at this point...but still feel I need to bring it home. Adding dps buttons won't make a healer heal less, unless they are bad (which then that's a skill issue, and that person should learn to grow into their job.)

[Connor]

Where are you getting this idea that SCH has "tried to set out" for a "utility buff/debuff" identity versus it's historic FFXIV and FFXI identity of a job that uses DoTs in combat? Expedient and Chain Stratagem?

Embrava, Adloquium and Regen V say hi lol. Also wasn’t Scholar used either as a support healer or a skill chainer / magic burster with Immanence lol? So…it focused on buffs, debuffs and support lol. Helixes (Helices? Lol) were cool and valuable, but I don’t really think they were supposed to be the entire focus of the job. An important aspect, undeniably, but I don’t think they conceptualised Scholar as a ‘poison Mage’ in ff11 or ff14 lol.

Even if you don’t count ‘buffs that amount to generic healing’ like Whispering Dawn, Protraction and Excogitation (which honestly I think SE mistakenly categorises as ‘buffs’ rather than ‘healing’) you still have general damage reductions, magical damage reductions, critical hit rate against target increased by 10%, movement speed increase. Then if you start looking into things they removed, there’s AoE Haste, AoE Esuna and further debuffs like Enemy Silence (not particularly reliable but it existed lol), Eye for an Eye, Virus, Shadow Flare.

To turn the question back at you, where are you getting that Scholar is a job that uses DoTs in combat lol? The fact it used to share spells with Summoner? And if that were truly part of the job’s core design, how could the devs still think it does that with a single, uninteractive DoT lol? If anything it’s ‘historic identity’ is that of a versatile caster that can change tactics depending on the situation, i.e Dark / Light Arts, which in turn means it’s buffing, debuffing and attacking the enemy equally. But I don’t see how it could be categorised as an ‘offensive DoT job’ in either game really - it seems a little reductionist

[Shurrikhan]

At the very least, with these Devs and this type of design, it's VERY unlikely they could pull something off that wasn't.

"If the actor is explicitly incapable, the act is unlikely to succeed."

Well, no shit. But if we're to limit discourse solely to what we think the devs could likely pull off, what constructive activities could ever be possible here?

So, any counter here that doesn't rely on purposely damning premises? There's not a suggested change that you've made, either, that wouldn't be equally damned by that premise, after all.

They generally are [mutually exclusive]. If they weren't, you guys would support the "4 Healers Model" since it offers both.

Your model excludes some aspects of available depth from some jobs and other aspects of available depth from other jobs -- i.e., treats those aspects as mutually exclusive, when they wouldn't need to be if you just allowed each kit greater depth/agency in total instead of insisting on an equally low or barely raised skill ceiling.

It's not that people would support your model if increasing healing requirements and having more involved downtime options weren't mutually exclusive. They are not mutually exclusive, and your model tends to get crap for treating them as if they were.

To turn the question back at you, where are you getting that Scholar a job that uses DoTs in combat lol? The fact it used to share spells with Summoner? And if that were truly part of the job’s core design, how could the devs still think it does that with a single, uninteractive DoT lol?

The basis of its form of magic as established in this game tends to focus on the lesser wheel / not-directly manifest magics. ACN destabilizes enemies' aether as to debilitate both their physical (Bio) and magical bodies (Miasma). From there, SMN instead channels their Egi for access to more directly manifest magics and for means of more immediate (though often less efficient) release (see old Ruin III operating alongside Ruin I; Fester, Painflare) while SCH focuses instead on the imbued Aetherpool itself, thereby able to effectively boil enemies alive through those aetheric excesses and disturbances (Broil) they created. This doesn't get carried out very well in the gameplay, but that doesn't mean the setup isn't/wasn't there.

And no, the devs almost certainly don't think that that identity is covered by a single, uninteractive DoT. But they also probably don't think about identity, period, at this point.

[Connor]

The basis of its form of magic as established in this game tends to focus on the lesser wheel / not-directly manifest magics. ACN destabilizes enemies' aether as to debilitate both their physical (Bio) and magical bodies (Miasma). From there, SMN instead channels their Egi for access to more directly manifest magics and for means of more immediate (though often less efficient) release (see old Ruin III operating alongside Ruin I; Fester, Painflare) while SCH focuses instead on the imbued Aetherpool itself, thereby able to effectively boil enemies alive through those aetheric excesses and disturbances (Broil) they created. This doesn't get carried out very well in the gameplay, but that doesn't mean the setup isn't/wasn't there.

And no, the devs almost certainly don't think that that identity is covered by a single, uninteractive DoT. But they also probably don't think about identity, period, at this point.

So they established an identity for Scholar as an ‘aetherial poison Mage’ as you say…then removed all the poisons? That doesn’t add up to me lol. I don’t think the developers are that stupid. If they designed Scholar to be a DoT oriented offensive healer, I don’t get why they would then remove all the offensive DoTs? Unless there was more to it than just the DoTs. If they didn’t like it that much surely they would’ve done a Summoner style complete redesign to fit the ‘DoT attacker’ identity they had conceptualised? I find it hard to believe they said ‘fuck it, let’s take all the DoTs from the job whose identity is DoTs and give them nothing in return’. And before we pull Summoner into it, they do technically give something in exchange for the lost DoTs…it just sucks lol (Rite / Astral Flow spam)

I mean, putting aside that Bio and Miasma sound suspiciously like the perfect debuffs through such description (physical / magical damage reductions) isn’t this ignoring the converse?

Scholars utilise the manipulation of aether within a physical body / entity for a desired effect, through geometric formulae and/or Nymian script (it was written on Setoto’s fathers coat when you find it). Like releasing fire aspected aether to ignite an enemy

Does it not also follow that they would be competent in altering aether for a positive effect? I mean, isn’t altering someone’s aether to make them more resilient still the exact same thing as altering it to slowly unravel? So…debuffs and buffs lol. Gathering aether together to form a shield, corrupting/distorting enemy aether to weaken them or lower their resistances, reinforcing allies aether to weather stronger attacks, all whilst utilising the fairy for direct healing magicks. It still seems reductionist to me to just say, ‘Scholars are offensive attackers who utilise corrupted aether to inflict pain on their enemies’. It’s certainly part of the full picture, but it’s ultimately still only one half lol. It’s like saying Bards are either just Archers with lasers or Musicians who really likes
bows. Whether we like it or not, the identity (currently) is both lol.

I just don’t want to see Scholar get dismantled and replaced with a DoT Drone because of a preoccupation with one aspect of the job (that arguably wasn’t a major one). They’ve already ravaged Bard and Astrologian, I don’t want to see Scholar be next lol. I don’t even disagree with Scholar actually getting more DoTs. But I don’t want to see it reduced to a DoT Botter (lol) that just sits around pressing the same 3 buttons all day without actually having to do anything tactical or strategic. There should be a purpose to them beyond ‘hit every X seconds to deal damage’

[Shurrikhan]

...

To be clear, here, I'm not against reframing them to have more of a buff emphasis. I meant only to point out that the DoTs were very much interlinked with SCH's identity (albeit through ACN / the way XIV specifically chose to set up SCH magical arts, just like the natural-astral elements and White Magic are likewise interlinked in XIV) and why people may therefore feel strongly about them.

I'd agree that the intersections between both is where SCH would probably feel the most iconic and fleshed out. Current Galvanize doesn't really do any more with its current namesake than Bio/Miasma do/did.

For instance, between SGE and SCH, I would think the first would be more about multi-tasking with individually weak but highly responsive actions through its nouliths that could coalesce into synergetic techniques at time, while SCH's foresight would be a bit more long-sighted and more about investments into individual units to be exploited later.

Back in the day, I'd say DoTs were a pretty big part of SCH gameplay and there's ample opportunity for them to be more interestingly involved, but imo it'd be far from ideal to just throw the DoTs and Bane back onto the kit, improvement though it would be.

[Nizzi]

Embrava, Adloquium and Regen V say hi lol. Also wasn’t Scholar used either as a support healer or a skill chainer / magic burster with Immanence lol? So…it focused on buffs, debuffs and support lol. Helixes (Helices? Lol) were cool and valuable, but I don’t really think they were supposed to be the entire focus of the job. An important aspect, undeniably, but I don’t think they conceptualised Scholar as a ‘poison Mage’ in ff11 or ff14 lol.

Why mention Embrava but not it's dark magic counterpart Kaustra, which is a DoT? And iirc you could use Immanence to set up skill chains into MB Kaustra in soloing? So in both games, it is a job that uses DoTs in combat, which is a part of its historic identity. Do you think it was just a coincidence it turned out like that when ARR was being developed? Also, the "poison theme" of the DoTs has nothing to do with wanting them back, I couldn't care less if it were Bio and Miasma or they were named something else honestly, though I do like Bio and Miasma as they are thematically. I ask for those back because it's no work, no new animations or developer effort and can be done in a minor patch while helping the monotony that Scholar has had for two expansions. It's the gameplay, not the thematics.

To turn the question back at you, where are you getting that Scholar is a job that uses DoTs in combat lol? The fact it used to share spells with Summoner? And if that were truly part of the job’s core design, how could the devs still think it does that with a single, uninteractive DoT lol? If anything it’s ‘historic identity’ is that of a versatile caster that can change tactics depending on the situation, i.e Dark / Light Arts, which in turn means it’s buffing, debuffing and attacking the enemy equally. But I don’t see how it could be categorised as an ‘offensive DoT job’ in either game really - it seems a little reductionist

What? Helixes were Scholar specific DoTs in FFXI. So was Kaustra. SCH used Modas Veritas to reduce its Helix timer but double the DoT's damage. Dark Arts gave bonuses to SCH's Helix spells, and Tabula Rasa did as well. Up until Shadowbringers, SCH had 4 DoTs it used in combat (more than SMN did in SB, and it has 1 more than SMN has now lol). The new PvP version of Scholar is built around using your DoT offensively and defensively, along with Biolytic using Miasma's icon for its debuff which is amusing. I don't get how that's reductionist at all, honestly. Was it simply a coincidence that its offensive kit had such a heavy DoT focus until ShB? I'm not trying to be rude by asking that either, but there was clearly a design philosophy shift with healers in ShB, the developers even stated as much when they said they wanted healers to focus on having a more "heal oriented playstyle" that has yet to actually come to fruition. There's a reason every healer has the same amount of DPS actions, but I don't think that changes much of anything when that design philosophy is the reason for this thread's topic and the discontent with the current design direction.

Further, "buffing" and "debuffing" in FFXIV is incredibly boring and there's less of a chance of that changing than there is of healers getting more DPS buttons because of how they've set up the modern game. DPS and Tank players really do not like it when you mess up their rotations; things like Selene's haste buff or AST's cards were removed or changed for this reason. For anything they could've given as a way for healers to lean more "utility support" they've either removed or jobs have ways to manage that themselves, such as Lucid Dreaming on Casters. This is why "supportive buffs" are all just "does x% more damage" etc, another player mistiming or not buffing correctly isn't going to effect a person's rotation. Say Scholar got Virus back as a debuff next expansion. You just use it as an oGCD when there's a heavy raidwide coming out that needs to be mitigated, just like you do any other oGCD for that same purpose. It doesn't stop you spamming Broil and it doesn't change any considerations Scholar has to make. There's nothing tactical about that. Every bit of this game is timelined, and that matters a lot in terms of the design of jobs. It's not that I like the fact that buttons get shoved off to the side because "there's no point to use this" but if there really is no point to using it versus something else, why would I use it?

But I don’t want to see it reduced to a DoT Botter (lol) that just sits around pressing the same 3 buttons all day without actually having to do anything tactical or strategic. There should be a purpose to them beyond ‘hit every X seconds to deal damage’

What do you mean lol, it's been reduced to a Broil Botter that sits around pressing the same 1 button all day. Is that interesting to you now? There shouldn't have to be any purpose, justification or "strategy" to it other than the fact that spamming Broil 160+ times in an encounter for 90% of your GCDs is not fun, simple as that. Besides, the tactics and strategy of Scholar comes from using your shields effectively while minimizing their usage and maximizing your Energy Drains; knowing where you can get by not shielding and not using Aetherflow on Soil or other Aetherflow resources is that in the job. This game and its encounters are simply not built for strategy or tactics that do anything more than optimizing your damage at the current time. Things like 'Malady' and 'Heavy' on Miasma and 'Blind' on Ruin II, while flavorful, ultimately don't serve any purpose than added flavor. With a fight's timeline, you're always going to use your buttons at the same time, on every job.

The healers DO have varied healing kits and considerations, though small as they may be between SCH and SGE. That's why they should play differently DPS wise as they did in the past, considering you spend the overwhelming majority of your GCDs as a healer on DPSing.

[Connor]

Back in the day, I'd say DoTs were a pretty big part of SCH gameplay and there's ample opportunity for them to be more interestingly involved, but imo it'd be far from ideal to just throw the DoTs and Bane back onto the kit, improvement though it would be.

This is how I feel as well. I’m not suggesting DoTs aren’t important part of Scholar’s identity but I also believe part of that is that there’s more to them than just the application of damage over time abilities.

Personally, I’d be happy with just Biolysis and a Second DoT, Miasmalysis lol? (Not that I can imagine how one would cause the breakdown of miasma lol). But to me, what’s most important is that they have a tactical purpose beyond simply applying them, like affecting damage taken or dealt, critical hit resistances, Slow, etc. Then with things like adapting Deployment Tactics (and giving it 2 charges lol) those tactical usages can influence how/when you use them, like refreshing them early to spread them to adds on spawn and making the most out of the debuffs (and damage over time). With buffs and debuffs competing for Deployment Tactics Scholars would (theoretically) have meaningful decisions to make over whether to spread buffs, debuffs, or try to spread both based on the context.

Of course there are some issues that arise, like ‘what’s the point of being able to spread debuffs when 90% of content is against a single enemy’ lol. Plus, buffs/debuffs getting math’d into oblivion so you have to use the ‘superior’ ones all the time every time. Not to mention the obvious issue of, if the debuffDoTs can both the applied together you just stick them on every X seconds and that’s it. If they’re mutually exclusive, then it’s still basically just using 1 DoT at a time, you’re just switching it up every so often. I won’t claim my idea of where Scholar should go are foolproof or flawless (not that many things are lol), but I personally believe that kind of design is what would see Scholar’s identity flourish most as a ‘versatile, tactical support healer’

Also as an aside, remember Miasma had that weird status effect tacked onto it in 2.0 - 4.0? I want to say it was Disease but I don’t exactly remember lol. I feel like this was part of their half-baked idea for ‘DoTs that function to weaken/debuff the enemy’, similar to the Slow effect on Shadow Flare. And likewise with shielding covering the ‘buffing’ aspect, even though it’s probably more accurately categorised as ‘healing’

[ForsakenRoe]

Personally, I’d be happy with just Biolysis and a Second DoT, Miasmalysis lol?

All I'd ask for is:

Broil V (we know it's coming), 300p
Biolysis, 30s, 350 total
MiasMalady/MiasMalaria/MiasMalign pick any pun you like, 24s, 340 total (30 per tick, 100 on cast)
Shadowflare, AOE blast around target, drops puddle centered on them. 100p on cast, plus 50p per tick (total 350). This makes the move also be a gain to use in AOE pulls, but not enough damage to spam instead of AOW.

That's all. It's not like this would suddenly make the class be 'BlackMage hard to play'. Let us hit em with the MiasMumps Measles and Rubella SE


Unrelated to the above pitch, doesn't it make sense that SE would say 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH', having neutered it's DOT focused identity in SHB? As in, if it still had, say, the above pitch for DOT kit, wouldn't they have found it easier to fit a new skill in, like idk Salted Earth SCH ver., 'it makes your Shadowflare puddle bubble up and deal 100p more damage, as an OGCD!' kind of thing? By insisting on the healers having such simple DPS kits, they've artificially hamstrung their potential design space on what to give the jobs. And it's super apparent on WHM, because that job is a 'pure healer'. It can't get shields, that's Barrier healer stuff. It can't get buffs that help deal damage, that's AST territory. So instead it just gets the Overheal Weed, and Aquaveil which, while cool, could also have just been a Trait/Upgrade to Benison to add the effect of 'while the shield holds, damage taken is reduced by X% too'

[IDontPetLalas]

My first healer was a Scholar. When I started out it was during the time that cleric stance was still in effect. I went on hiatus for a while, when I came back not only was cleric stance gone, so were multiple DPS skills (the offensive dots as above), but the buffs that were interesting to use ( such as eye for an eye) plus more- so many skills were removed it felt like someone had taken a hatchet job to it. I'm sure I've see a post here and there that listed them all, if I remember correctly it was around a hotbar or so.

If anyone, while I agree that SCH has had some interesting skills introduced, it already was dismantled (Selene and pet changes for example), the devs already reverted one change in the past, and admitted that they didn't know what to do with it- which to me is an admission that they need fresh blood in their design team if they are stock stuck for ideas.