Latest Official Developer Statements About Healer DPS?

[PercibelTheren]

Not to mention that if you take a good hard look at healer's healing kits they're not very interesting either, outside of very few exceptions like Haima, Liturgy and Macrocosmos. So you've replaced spamming Glare with spamming Medica, the most bland "make HP bar go up" spell ever, GG.

I honestly think this is the core issue of why healers feel so boring. The healing abilities themselves are effective tools, but they're not FUN. I would like them to diversify what they do. I like delayed healing abilities like Macrocosmos. Lean into some healing tools giving a heal over time but little spot healing. Make some abilities spot healing without the regen. Make me use the correct tool for the job. Right now every raidwide is solved by "just use whichever OGCD is not on cooldown."

[Renathras]

And even in the very rare case they do let healers wear metal (laws order is the only class specific example I can think of) they have to add a frilly dress extension to it just so you don’t forget you are a healer and healers wear robes

Don't forget the Ronkan (I think?) gear from ShB. It's chianmail, which is very much metal.

Got any data to back any of that up?

Fast forward to Stormblood and you started to see a real shift. Cleric Stance in it's original form was gone, WHM finally had MP to spare and all 3 healers had access to solid oGCD heals at this point. This is where the DPSing healer became the norm at all levels of endgame content rather than the exception.

Do you?
Or is this just your heresay again?

You made a claim first. Can you prove it?

ShB was when just about every Healer felt comfortable DPSing...because the DPSing was so streamlined that it was almost down to "if no healing is needed, press this button over and over until healing is needed". This is when midcore content and even casual content adopted the policy, as well as Extremes and even Experts, and it was the expectation across all levels of endgame content, not just Savages. Note that "Endgame" does not mean "Savages", it also includes Expert roulette and Extremes.

The real problem is healing demands in most duties. In most duties you arent being forced to heal at all. Power creep makes this worse at an excessively quick speed making duties just 2 patches older trivial. Its just very bad balance towards healers.

If healers were more reliably demanded to heal, the 1 dps button wouldnt have been an issue to begin with. The real problem is lack of healing demands which causes healers to focus to dps.

Hammer -> Nail's Head

This is the reality of our situation.

Too much power creep, too many overpowered oGCDs reducing the need to GCD heal, encounters designed to be mitigation checks rather than healing on unavoidable damage AND for avoidable damage to outright kill most players so that healing to make up for mistakes often isn't possible, and in more casual content (and some hardcore content, like the Ultimate TOP that was 0 healer cleared) Tanks and DPSers having too much healing as well. (Look at how much healing DNC can output sometime; it's insane and makes 4 man fights trivial to clear without a Healer, and obviously I don't need to explain WAR at this point, right?)

But that brings us to the usual problem, even if they made proper healing-intensive fights they will still be 100% limited to just savage, ultimate and maybe the odd extreme. So in the majority of content, expert roulette, alliance raid, normal raid, treasure maps, etc you will still be bored to death.

Not to put too fine a point on it: But this will always be true from highly skilled players doing casual content.

"But not DPSers!"

...yes, DPSers, too. A lot of high end players get bored doing AOEspam wall-to-wall pulls and see Experts as a chore to DPS, too. And for people used to doing DPS rotations while avoiding complex mechanics in the Savage dance, doing an optimal DPS rotation during one-mechanic-every-60-second octopus at the end of Aetherfont is "bored to death", too. Same for Tanks. There's nothing unique to Healers about that.

If high end content engages you, that's what you're going to be doing more of, and with the advent of Criterion, they don't need to change-up "casual" content to be "not boring" for high end players if you have valid alternatives to grind for tomes/etc.

To put it simply, you likely CANNOT design content that is non-trivial/non-boring for high end players to do over and over and over again that ALSO is still accessible for normal players in a general environment. And this community has generally accepted that MSQ is for everyone, not just hardcore people, who tend to only do it once before moving on to content more engaging to them. (Note Expert roulette is MSQ content, thus is MSQ). At the end of the day, some content is just going to be boring for you if you're a hardcore raider. That really can't be helped. The goal should be to make it where such players don't need to keep doing the content (most everyone's fine with the one run for the story, but not the weekly grind for tomes) and can get their tomes from content they find more enjoyable.

Honestly, Criterion is an interesting design choice going forward since it has both solo, casual, and hardcore versions. It just needs to provide tomes commensurate to that.

Yes, this is the point that gets lost in the sauce it seems.

I don't think it does, it's a different argument.

Think about it - how in-depth would a healer rotation in Lapis Manalis have to be for you not to be bored? Would a 1-2-3 not still be boring? (As noted in that ongoing discussion in the Healer forum right now, everyone seems to agree that wouldn't do it). What about a SMN rotation? No, that gets called boring all the time as well. So it would have to be a full on DPSer rotation before "more DPS buttons" would really fix the problem. Dia having a Thundercloud proc would be novel for...a week. A 1-2-3 Stone-Aero-Water combo would be boring overnight.

I think the issue is that nothing WOULD actually make 4 man casual content NOT boring for high end players such as yourself or others like you, unless we get something either high APM like GNB or DPSer level difficult like BLM. And at that point, we run into all the attendant issues of Healers having full on DPS rotations.

Moreover, an additional issue:

UNLESS the damage gap between optimal and "glarespammer" is small, then when you get a Healer that does the bare minimum, now you're extending the time the run takes to the point of really annoying regular people, and we run into people just dropping healers and doing 1T/3D premades (even more than they do now). Meaning people's "get in, get out" runs will take even longer, leading to even...more...complaints.

Also:

With the amount of healing and mitigation tools non-healers have available they pretty much can increase the healing requirements in easier content. When the casual healer can't keep up then the rest of the party can step up their game.

No I agree they don't want healers to be more offensive. They just haven't faced the reality that unless you give healers something else to do (buffing, debuffing, cc cleansing, more healing) they're going to be more offensive because that's all a healer's kit is.

More or less, this.

I honestly think this is the core issue of why healers feel so boring. The healing abilities themselves are effective tools, but they're not FUN. I would like them to diversify what they do. I like delayed healing abilities like Macrocosmos. Lean into some healing tools giving a heal over time but little spot healing. Make some abilities spot healing without the regen. Make me use the correct tool for the job. Right now every raidwide is solved by "just use whichever OGCD is not on cooldown."

This, and that we're so oGCD healing focused, it leaves us with a LOT of "dead" GCDs to fill, so we fill them with the same damage nuke spam. If all oGCD heals were GCD heals (or, at least, a lot more of them were), that would change that a lot. WHM right now has the least oGCD healing and the least Glarespam (ironic, given the name) of all the Healers.

[AmiableApkallu]

If all oGCD heals were GCD heals (or, at least, a lot more of them were), that would change that a lot. WHM right now has the least oGCD healing and the least Glarespam (ironic, given the name) of all the Healers.

When I ran the first third of Lv.70 Swallow's Compass as WHM with a DRG and BRD -- no tank, 'cause they DC'ed! -- what did I do? Nuke spam. And that was even while **I** was the one tanking the trash.

Putting healing on the GCD will not change the feel of an encounter all that much so long as the incoming damage model remains as it is. /two cents

[Renathras]

...

Funny thing, I've always been respectful in interactions with you, and generally respected your expertise while agreeing with you on many points - not all, mind you, but many. Yet now, you've decided as of yesterday, for me committing the crime of agreeing with something specific someone else said that is literally something I've been saying for months/years now, that I'm your personal enemy. Now you're being hyper snarky for no good reason (being a dick, basically) because you decided to blow a gasket for me daring to agree with someone agreeing with me - for once - in the healer forum.

I don't get it, but whatever. Perhaps you thought while I was alone and isolated, I wasn't a threat, and now that others are agreeing with me, I am, and so must be destroyed, but I honestly don't know. It has been a STARK and noticeable change on your part, though.

So as for your comments:

1) I won't rehash the slidecasting to - yet again - point out you and the rest of the mob got that wrong (surprise surprise) and just didn't read what I wrote AND ignored the clarification I made because you'd rather just be a dick about it like the rest. So it's pointless to try and convince any of you to change your mind since you think it nettles me to bring it up and won't surrender that dickishness. So moving on...

2) I did, in fact, have AND USE Cleric. I used Cleric when soloing and doing the MSQ outright, and I also used it when it was safe to do so in dungeons and stuff that I did at the time. I'm both aware of Cleric AND aware of what it does AND I was a proficient user of it before SB. Where did I say it DIDN'T change in SB? I said ShB is when healer DPS became (effectively) one button, and THAT was when healers DPSing became the norm in all level cap content. Again, I'll point out that you said "endgame" not "Savage". So this doesn't "prove" your point that healers doing damage became the expected norm in SB. And you "proving" Cleric changed isn't relevant, since I didn't challenge that point. Where did I say "Cleric didn't change in SB, it changed in ShB!!!"? Oh, right - I didn't. (Though I suppose we can note it was removed, but...neither of us were arguing that point). So this proves nothing, since that point wasn't under contest.

3) "links" - What are you arguing here? Where did I say that Cleric wasn't changed in SB? I'm asking you to prove that ShB wasn't where healer DPS became common and expected in endgame, it was SB. You didn't prove that. You just proved that Cleric was changed in SB, a point I agree with since...why wouldn't I? It's history and a fact. It IS funny, though, how thoroughly those links prove that Cleric Stance was a bad ability and people were literally cheering when it was removed as a toggle, something current people here insist is untrue and all insist that Cleric was the height of healer game design... So thanks for proving me right, I guess?

4) Aww, is poor baby mad that I called her bluff?

5) The very thing I asked you to prove was that SB was when dpsing healers became the majority. You instead proved that Cleric Stance was changed away from a toggle. That's not the same thing. That's you doing the "Instructions Unclear" meme.

6) Psst, where did I say failing to maintain 100% DoT and AF uptime locked you out of your DPS kit?

.

You're still up: You didn't prove the thing I asked you to PROVE - that healing being the majority in all endgame content (remember, this includes roulettes) was the norm in SB.

You "proved" a point not contested - that Cleric was changed then - and you proved a point I've long said despite your typical posse here harping on me for it - that Cleric was a bad ability not good game design (my typical wording is "the single most rose tinted goggles ability in all of MMO history" or similar).

.

You did not prove the point actually contested - that dpsing on healers in ALL endgame content became the mainstream/norm/majority in SB and not ShB.

So...try again?

Or, perhaps, realize the truth: You can't prove it. Without data that we both know you don't have, it's not a claim you CAN prove.

.

If you narrow your scope, you could be right, btw. If we're talking only Savage content, then it probably is true that Healer DPS was the norm in SB (if not a bit before, since some Alex fights mathematically required it, Dev intention or no). But that isn't what you said and isn't what I asked for proof of. What I'm asking you to prove is that the majority in all endgame content were dpsing and that it was the expectation and norm by that point. Something that - hint hint - isn't provable.

.

EDIT:

To address your edited addition:

You have 5 anecdotes (including one REALLY dickish tank). So are you suggesting that SB's playerbase was only 9 (or less) people? Because 5 is only a majority in a group of 9 or less...

But if you really want to use THAT - god no, but whatever - then look at ShB and I'll bet you find a lot more.

Again, what you claimed isn't something you can actually prove. You can try to support it, but you're not going to be able to do much more than anecdote because you don't have any statistical data to prove it.

[Sebazy]

Or, perhaps, realize the truth: You can't prove it. Without data that we both know you don't have, it's not a claim you CAN prove.Or, perhaps, realize the truth: You can't prove it. Without data that we both know you don't have, it's not a claim you CAN prove.

I can provide substance such as the narrative rapidly spreading through the player base at the time to back up my claims, all you seem to be able to bring is comic relief, false claims and trolls.

Here's another alternative source:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...eborn/75492492

A simple 'how are you finding healers after Stormblood's release'. Look at how many replies are mentioning their DPS.

Still waiting for you to provide some substance to back up your claims btw.

[Renathras]

I can provide substance such as the narrative rapidly spreading through the player base at the time to back up my claims,

Except you can't and didn't. You provided anecdotes from a curated segment of the population, which isn't proof of majority - you're moving the goalposts and hoping I don't call you on it.

"replies mentioning their DPS" isn't a proof of "the majority of healers in all types of endgame content are now DPSing and it is the common expectation". You're not proving what you think you're proving. So you have yet to provide substancee to back up your claims.

Still waiting for you to provide some substance to back up your claims btw.
(I've already given you two outs, why are you still digging your hole deeper?)

all you seem to be able to bring is comic relief, false claims and trolls.

Sebazy? What happened to you?

[Sebazy]

Still waiting for you to provide some substance to back up your claims btw.
(I've already given you two outs, why are you still digging your hole deeper?)

Cool, lets go:

Youtube's up this time, lets search for Lighthouse (A Stormblood 24 man, not sure if you were brave enough to do those ones) WHM PoV

Lets link all the videos in a row

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9-SpO1iTB0 - Yep, he's DPSing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9-SpO1iTB0 - Also DPSing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtxdqgqlAG8 - It almost looks like we had a no DPS pov, but lo and behold, 4 minutes in, here come the stones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiSLG5rUpNQ - Yep, another DPSing healer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEJ9s0p_LNQ - Construct clip, also DPSing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0eqzNrN3Oo - Also DPSing

That's all the Lighthouse PoVs from the first page, several of them are very clearly casuals, first timers and whatnot that are struggling through what was a particularly challenging alliance raid. Far more so than the clown showers that pass for 24 mans this expansion. These aren't curated pros and hardcores uploading logs, look at the last link. The player's party nearly suffers a full wipe on the very first boss at one stage, yet he is still throwing some rocks and dots where he can in what was a pretty hectic fight.

And do you know the real kicker? Look at their co-healers cast bars, every single one is also DPSing. All of them.

[Sebazy]

You "proved" a point not contested - that Cleric was changed then - and you proved a point I've long said despite your typical posse here harping on me for it - that Cleric was a bad ability not good game design (my typical wording is "the single most rose tinted goggles ability in all of MMO history" or similar).

Uhuh

Didn't expect this big a change to cleric, let alone switching our DPS abilities over to MND (Finally omg), colour me impressed.

Gonna assume that healer DPS will take a blanket hit in the process of switching over to MND, but making Cleric an optional ability for a bit more oomph on openers and such is a nice call I think.

It's amusing that my group knows as well as I do that this change is going to suit me to an absolute T, I'll get to be cautious and conservative but also keep dots up np <3

Sorry, what were you saying again?

I've been healing in mmos since 1999 (Or even longer if you count anatomy in UO!) and I honestly can't think of another mmo that is so deathly afraid of healer DPS as this. That coupled with what I suspect is a lack of coordination and communication amongst the various content teams handling things. PvP being such a miasma of additional changes and abilities is a prime example of this.

My co healer is going to hate me for this, but personally I think EQ and WoW had healers (on healer specs of course) pegged at about the right level relative to to their DPS brethren, I was linking videos guides here in the early days of 3.0 on how to do 1000+ sustained dps as a SCH in the dungeons which was very competitive with highly competent DPS players which is too much. On the flip side healer single target dps is more in the right sort of territory.

IMO SE need to be a little more shameless and look afield at other mmos that have done a good job of not only enabling healers to do more than just heal, but in some cases actively embracing it. WoW is obviously the biggest yardstick, but for all it's faults I'd say Warhammer Online is a good one to look at with several of the healing classes actively having to get involved in combat rather than merely staring at health bars and working out windows for cleric stance. AST was both a mistake and a missed opportunity imo.

Oh and yes, cleric stance should go, healer DPS abilities should be based off MND and IMO damage should be tuned somewhat downwards in the case of aoe potential. Yes it's a very fair argument to say that it removes some of the skill element from healing, but it'll open up and streamline the job for the masses. Lets be honest now, those that are doing the best numbers with cleric stance as it is will likely still be doing the best numbers with it gone. Removing it would go a long way towards narrowing the gulf in between. Isn't that one of the main aims of 4.0?

Future Seb checking in.

Personally I think Yoshi's team has been hugely uninventive with healing as a whole, cleric stance is just the most immediately obvious example to anyone.

Cleric Stance was a lousy horrible ability taken in isolation. It was a crutch, a bandaid and shouldn't have ever have needed to have existed. I've always been perfectly clear and open with that view.

However there's also no denying that it was enjoyable to work around in it's own twisted way. It was like healer Parkour, 'pointlessly taking risks' that would potentially leave you incapacitated on the floor if you got it wrong. But when you got it right, it was oh so glorious even though it really shouldn't have been.

[Renathras]

Uhuh

Yes. Sebazy, I'll ask again, what's happened to you? Are you having irl troubles? You're being...very different than normal. Or ever.

You've been in the Healer Forum. You see the people there all the time saying they wish they had Cleric back. You having said at the time that it was a bad ability is proving what I always say to be true. Yet I've never seen you provide that quote in our discussions in the Healer forum too make the point.

Sorry, what were you saying again?

Let's try this:

What is your claim?

Is your claim "People at the time of SB were happy Cleric Stance was removed", or is your claim "In SB, healers dpsing became a thing the majority of them did and was the common expectation of the community as a whole"?

Which is it you're trying to argue? You initially stated the second of those, and that was what I asked you to prove, and ever since, you've been providing support for the first of those instead, which is a different argument. One I'm not contesting BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MY OWN ARGUMENT FOR HALF A DECADE.

Which argument are you making? If you've abandoned the "healer dpsing was the majority and expectation starting in SB", then that's fine, and we have nothing left to argue about, because all you're doing so far is agreeing with me while acting like we're opposed and pretending like you're winning an argument that we aren't even having.

I also find it hilarious your posts with you AGREEING WITH ME are getting likes because people that hate me think you're disagreeing with me and upvoting you saying I'm right. XD

[Renathras]

Did you purposely ignore all of the previous times we've been over this or did they all just happen to slip your mind? Jumping to '123 would get boring fast' despite all of the times where many people in the Healer section have said '123 is the most uncreative way to try and solve this, why not try X or Y' is pretty disingenuous. It's like you're trying to frame the topic as very new, so you can ignore all the previous discussion on it and start the debate from a 'blank slate' position

Nice goalpost shift, but irrelevant:

The question was "how in-depth would a healer rotation in Lapis Manilis have to be for you not to be bored?", and this meaning "running it for ~8-9 months".

I genuinely don't think anything that isn't a full on DPS rotation will meet that requirement, especially when we consider most of Lapis Manalis is AOE rotation burns, not even single-target rotations. Even most DPS AOE rotations are, what, around 5 abilities? Most have a 1-2 AOE combo with a third CD and a couple of oGCDs and a self-buff. And those are DPS Jobs, not Tank Jobs, btw. SMN is constantly accused of having a braindead 1 button macroable rotation, so it wouldn't be better, and RDM has a 4 button AOE rotation; Impact/Scathe/Resolution, Verthunder2/Flare, Veraero2/Holy, and Enchanted Moulinet. You can throw in Fleche/Contre Sixte (only one of those is AOE, but they can both be used), Manification and Embolden, but the latter two are long CDs and Contre isn't exactly short, but even if we add all those, that gives you 8, with 4 of those being shared with single target. And there are even less involved DPS Jobs than that. I feel like what would happen is we would give you guys this on all the healers, then a few months later, you'd be complaining for more because it wouldn't really fix the problem unless it was a MUCH more advanced rotation.

DoTs are actually more complicated than SMN, so asking for a shorter/more frequent Dia would, actually, be more complicated than SMN. Just so we're clear on that. Again, "onebuttonmacro: The Job", remember?

Besides, recall that I suggest this...literally all the time...under the 4 Healers Model.

"But one healer will be left out!"

And? You'll get multiple options to play and not be bored. The only downside is if you specifically WANT other people to be unhappy by not having current healer gameplay exist. Which is not a good position to hold.

.

EDIT:

I mean, serious question, would applying Dia 2-3 more times a minute REALLY make you running Lapis Manalis super fun and engaging to you? REALLY?

Forgive me for pressing X to doubt.