Latest Official Developer Statements About Healer DPS?

[Maltothoris]

If you want definitive proof that healer dps is included, look at the required ilvls. Here is the coils of Bahamut for example https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...ils_of_Bahamut So you can see the final fight's ilvl requirement is very close to the bis ilvl range such as first coil's 82 to 90, second coil 105 to 110 and final coil's 123 to 130. However as we've seen, Final Coil was cleared within the first week by 3 groups where none of them reached that ilvl because the additional dps of tanks outside their tank stance and healers doing dps as well. This then lead to gordias savage following second coil's progression (190>195>200>205).

We see the first change actually where they are probably more mindful of healer dps from Midas savage. The first fight is ilvl 215, second fight is 220, however both the third and the fourth fights were 225. If I recall correctly, they said the dps check were more lax in comparison to Gordias however, you would need vitality melds to survive the bigger hits in those fights. Creator Savage also follows the same rule as Midas. Also the crafted gear of both Midas and Creator were both 5 ilvls lower than the 3rd and fourth fights requirement,( The crafted gear for Midas was i220 https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...cton_of_Aiming and Creator crafted gear was i250 https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...ass_of_Fending

We seen the system that we are now currently in with Deltascape savage. The first fight ilvl was 310, the second fight 315 and the last two are 320. The crafted gear however is now i320. https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...obe_of_Healing.

Edit: You can see that this pattern from Deltascape happens all the other raid tiers. The first fight starts with the old bis ilvl from the previous tier just jumps up twice to match the new crafted gear that becomes available for that patch.

[Supersnow845]

We know coils was explicitly designed to not factor in healer DPS (and let’s be real half of coils didn’t even have hard enrages and the ones that do were so lax on their enrage check that nothing came remotely close)

Gordias was the point they started explicitly balancing with healer DPS in mind and they have done that ever since

If you are clearing a fight without healer DPS it both has a lax DPS check and you are also being carried by godly DPS players

[ForsakenRoe]

Hasn't there been maths done that show that you cannot clear Ultimate at all without healer damage contributions, and that to beat final Savage tunrs, you need a high-purple/orange team of tanks and DPS, in BIS (ie, needing the gear that comes from said Savage fight) to make up the difference in missing damage from healers?

Looking at my first clear of P12S in week 1, me and my cohealer had 5.6k and 5.9k RDPS respectively. Where are we meant to find 11k more damage, without getting BIS on EVERY player besides the healers, if 'Healers are not expected to deal damage'? For the statement to be true in current raid design, this is the differential a group would have to overcome. It might have been true back in ARR, but it sure as heck wasn't true when the statement was made (Gordias iirc)

Looking again at the video linked in the OP, and re-reading the answer Yoshida gave:



The tone of it, at least to me, seems to aim more for a 'we don't want to force people to do damage as a healer if they're not comfortable', more aimed at the 'feel', and not so much about 'raid tuning'. When they say 'we do not want to make healer DPS mandatory', though, that part seems like it can be construed as referring to raid tuning, and if it is referring to the maths rather than the 'feeling', then they've missed the mark entirely for 6 years

[UkcsAlias]

The tone of it, at least to me, seems to aim more for a 'we don't want to force people to do damage as a healer if they're not comfortable', more aimed at the 'feel', and not so much about 'raid tuning'. When they say 'we do not want to make healer DPS mandatory', though, that part seems like it can be construed as referring to raid tuning, and if it is referring to the maths rather than the 'feeling', then they've missed the mark entirely for 6 years

The thing is, if as healer you can dps a lot, it indicates the team is doing well. And being able to do meaningfull dps in that case rewards that. If the dps would be meaningless, why even bother being a healer then? Now while it is less than a dps, its still meaningfull dps that can make dps tresholds easier to reach.

The real problem is healing demands in most duties. In most duties you arent being forced to heal at all. Power creep makes this worse at an excessively quick speed making duties just 2 patches older trivial. Its just very bad balance towards healers.

If healers were more reliably demanded to heal, the 1 dps button wouldnt have been an issue to begin with. The real problem is lack of healing demands which causes healers to focus to dps. And that also made the '1 dps button' a problem. You want variety in actions. 90% of the time using dps is not that. Even if you are using that 1 button 50% of the time for your GCDs (which is still a lot) it would be fine, since healer dps is about optimizing your gcds to enable as much 1 casts as possible. And dont underestimate a reduction from 90% to 80% in GCD dps casts. This is still a doubling of other abilities being demanded! 90% vs 60% requires 4x as much GCDs for other purposes. Thats how much a bit more healing demands could affect DPS casts.

[Aravell]

The real problem is healing demands in most duties. In most duties you arent being forced to heal at all. Power creep makes this worse at an excessively quick speed making duties just 2 patches older trivial. Its just very bad balance towards healers.

SE tried to solve this in Abyssos. Their method of solving lack of healing required is to make raidwides that deal more than the max HP of the party so you just die unless you mitigate it, which(to no one's surprise) made double shield healer a much better option than 1 shield + 1 regen.

I don't think the fight designers truly understand how to make a proper healing-intensive fight, which is weird, because Barbariccia is a good fight design that fits the bill of "more healing requirement" rather than Rubicante/Golbez and their mechanics which can just kill you from full without mitigation.

[UkcsAlias]

I think that server side framerate limitations are preventing too many actions from happening at once. So they are often required to do hard hitters instead of a more constant bleeding damage. Yet such sort of damage can do quite a lot on the healer side.

But i might have an idea that can force healer requirements, increase esuna usage (and with variety in strategies on usage), and is easy to understand:
Each raid wide aoe the boss does adds 1 special vuln stack. This stack lasts until the end of the fight, but can be removed by esuna.

The effect of this is that if these arent mitigated, the incoming damage simply becomes too high to mitigate. And the way these can act can even vary:
- We can make the stack only affect the next aoe cast and cause it to apply an additional fixed damage value (20% max hp per stack), while it can be mitigated, it wont be easy to mitigate 100% damage hits repeatedly
- The vuln stack simply is a counter. After having X, you die.
- It simply increases incoming damage as we know now. Can still be a hassle without changing much otherwise.

And some more notible ideas:
- Boss aoe applies doom to everyone with 60s countdown. Esuna cures this. Easy, but breaks any non healer meta.
- Team missing health causes next boss aoe to deal that missing health as damage (no more staying below 50%). And with modifier could also be made a 66% or 75% (double or triple missing hp in damage)

But i think the vuln stack idea could on that be a good way to adjust fights in a more generic way.

[Absurdity]

SE tried to solve this in Abyssos. Their method of solving lack of healing required is to make raidwides that deal more than the max HP of the party so you just die unless you mitigate it, which(to no one's surprise) made double shield healer a much better option than 1 shield + 1 regen.

I don't think the fight designers truly understand how to make a proper healing-intensive fight, which is weird, because Barbariccia is a good fight design that fits the bill of "more healing requirement" rather than Rubicante/Golbez and their mechanics which can just kill you from full without mitigation.

But that brings us to the usual problem, even if they made proper healing-intensive fights they will still be 100% limited to just savage, ultimate and maybe the odd extreme. So in the majority of content, expert roulette, alliance raid, normal raid, treasure maps, etc you will still be bored to death.

Not to mention that if you take a good hard look at healer's healing kits they're not very interesting either, outside of very few exceptions like Haima, Liturgy and Macrocosmos. So you've replaced spamming Glare with spamming Medica, the most bland "make HP bar go up" spell ever, GG.

[ForsakenRoe]

But that brings us to the usual problem, even if they made proper healing-intensive fights they will still be 100% limited to just savage, ultimate and maybe the odd extreme. So in the majority of content, expert roulette, alliance raid, normal raid, treasure maps, etc you will still be bored to death.

Yes, this is the point that gets lost in the sauce it seems. It's not a case of 'healer is boring in Savage because 111111', it's that if you've done {whatever level of content} and gotten accustomed to that level of gameplay, then anything below that is more bland because 111111. Changing Savage to hit harder so we have to heal more, for example, does not address the tedium of 24mans or EX roulette, they'll still be as monotonous as before, because we cannot bump them too much or casual players will suffer (supposedly). So instead, a simple, yet focused 2 or 3 changes to each healer's damage rotation, balanced in such a way that ignoring the new additions is a smaller potency loss than something like 'ignoring your DOT' is right now, is what to look into, I think. If someone is skilled enough to use the new rotation, they can. If they are not, they can ignore parts of it until they get more comfortable with the job and start to throw in more and more of the rotation. Nobody is going to cause a wipe in Lapis Manalis because they could not work out how to effectively use their new Miasma DOT on SCH. They might, however, cause a wipe if they cannot keep up with the fact Cagnazzo has learned how to make his water AOEs do 30% more damage, or that they had to press more healing spells, ran out of MP for the first time in their time playing FFXIV and could not cast any more spells.

None of us went from zero damage spells to instantly full blast. We started by throwing in our DOT here and there, then maybe a Stone or two, and working our way up. In fact, I would put real money on the following statement being true:

'Back in SB, when SCH had Miasma at 24s and Bio2 at 30s, a fairly large chunk of the playerbase settled for just refreshing both at the same time when Miasma needed refreshing, clipping Bio by 6s each time for a small DPS loss.'

It wasn't 'required' for SCHs to make sure to NEVER clip Bio's duration in the way described above. Those two lost ticks per 24s would not have been the make-or-break thing that causes a clear vs enrage, especially when AST existed in the form that it did. But some love to imply that any amount of extra complexity will have casuals causing wipes left and right due to missed DOT ticks and losing casts due to analysis paralysis on 'what damage button do I press next'

[PercibelTheren]

Not to mention that if you take a good hard look at healer's healing kits they're not very interesting either, outside of very few exceptions like Haima, Liturgy and Macrocosmos. So you've replaced spamming Glare with spamming Medica, the most bland "make HP bar go up" spell ever, GG.

I honestly think this is the core issue of why healers feel so boring. The healing abilities themselves are effective tools, but they're not FUN. I would like them to diversify what they do. I like delayed healing abilities like Macrocosmos. Lean into some healing tools giving a heal over time but little spot healing. Make some abilities spot healing without the regen. Make me use the correct tool for the job. Right now every raidwide is solved by "just use whichever OGCD is not on cooldown."

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

The Healer dps issue seems to only be an issue for vets. Most players seem content with healers not having a lot of DPS things they have to juggle alongside healing and mechanics.

Besides, if they want that style then there's always Sage.

No reason to rock the boat just to appease some vets at the cost of the majority. Which we know that is the case considering that the easiest healers are the ones that are played the most.