Why are there no multi-hit skills on Sage?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

It's on both, maybe your settings are different, but it's always been like this for me.

CMIIW, but I remember they have their own chances to crit/dh/cdh too. I.e. 1st hit may do normal dmg but 2nd and 3rd can crit separately.

[Aravell]

CMIIW, but I remember they have their own chances to crit/dh/cdh too. I.e. 1st hit may do normal dmg but 2nd and 3rd can crit separately.

Yes, each hit is calculated separately, that's why there's damage variance and why you can get only 1 or 2 hits that crit. I can't get a picture though, because it refuses to crit for me, so I gave up.

[AnotherPerson]

Yes, each hit is calculated separately, that's why there's damage variance and why you can get only 1 or 2 hits that crit. I can't get a picture though, because it refuses to crit for me, so I gave up.

Here you go.


Checked the battle log to make sure it wasn't a regular attack that does it. Here's 2 different instances where critical hit is involved on the Battle Log. The red and green arrows indicate the effects of the used skill. In this case, Dream within a dream attacks thrice and there's different critical hit variance for each attack. Bloodbath calculates based on damage and has a maximum scale based on enemy's HP. The first battle log screenshot was against a Lv 1 training dummy so bloodbath all stayed the same because it can't heal more than a certain amount of the enemy's HP. The second one was against a lv 50 training dummy. Kardia has its own healing potency so it doesn't have a finnicky scaling based on enemy's remaining HP and damage.
Img 1:


Img 2:

[Shurrikhan]

Here you go.

Nice. That quite thoroughly demonstrates all the technical aspects.

Broader question, though: Is it feel better/necessary for Kardia's interactions to exploit multi-hits specifically, or just that it should be able to exploit variances in its triggering GCDs?

I feel like literally doubling/tripling/quadrupling its value via multi-hits would mean, in accordant balance, that the single-hit version would hardly be noticeable, so I'm a little worried about attempting to give it such a range.

Simply having it scale with damage, though, would already fit its bigger GCD hits quite nicely, I would think.

...while TRUE, I've noticed that people will often carry a grudge against some people so hard they legitimately WON'T agree with them even if they're saying the same things. Sabezy just said she's "done with me" for agreeing with someone who literally said something I've said many times, and then stated her position, which is in agreement (on several of the major bullet points and to a degree overall) with my own position. Ty and I actually agreed on a number of things, but he would attack me for it or refuse to admit when we did. Some people here have outright accused me of being disingenuous when I agreed with them...on positions I'd already been on the record holding, even accusing me of trying to pull something by being too nice.

Which had very little to do with the position so much as that said poster was very, very obviously using a strawman (that the current discourse had supposed that any increased offensive agency on healers would necessarily be mere a 123 combo) just to smirch a far broader position (that the current Broil spam gameplay can be favorably replaced/augmented through additions to healers' downtime depth).

Sebazy, myself, and others gave the benefit of the doubt at first that he had simply seen the healer 123 combos idea elsewhere and assumed it was far more popular than it actually was and contextualized it for him, only to be repeatedly ignored in favor of a red herring and blatant misinformation. By the point of your agreeing with the poster, his behavior had clearly gone the way of trolling/purposefully derailing, and given the timing of your previous responses around his own, it probably seemed likely you were aware of that.

Sebazy herself had already concurred with that poster. The difference would be the when (before he purposely ignored all factual correction and repeatedly pretended that no one had already and again contested the idea) and why (providing context, rather than coming in after the fact to join the guy in beating down a strawman to celebrate a moment of "Eyy! We agree!").

I'm a bit shocked you of all people are saying that considering...

If I get time to read prior posts, I tend to cite those who beat to a given point that I felt needed to be made, regardless of who made it. That's almost as often yours as, say, Roe's, Ty's, or Aravell's.

Again, we've agreed on a lot of shit. We just approach certain things rather differently, wherein I like to find a means to make all parties happy first (by resolving unnecessary bottlenecks / removing unnecessary constraints) and compromise only if necessary, whereas it's felt like you tend to jump straight towards that compromise, trying to resolve who should get what portions of time on the 8-lane intersection while I'd have just installed a roundabout.

[Absurdity]

Broader question, though: Is it feel better/necessary for Kardia's interactions to exploit multi-hits specifically, or just that it should be able to exploit variances in its triggering GCDs?

I feel like literally doubling/tripling/quadrupling its value via multi-hits would mean, in accordant balance, that the single-hit version would hardly be noticeable, so I'm a little worried about attempting to give it such a range.

I would replace already existing Sage oGCDs with those multi-hit abilities, so the normal single-hit version would still be noticeable as your passive healing (like Eos) since all of your big Kardia heals are still restricted by cooldowns.

I think the plan isn't really to just staple high potency Kardia healing on top of the already strong oGCD heals that Sage has, but replace the fire and forget abilities with something that interacts with your core job mechanic.

[Shurrikhan]

I would replace already existing Sage oGCDs with those multi-hit abilities, so the normal single-hit version would still be noticeable as your passive healing (like Eos) since all of your big Kardia heals are still restricted by cooldowns.

I think the plan isn't really to just staple high potency Kardia healing on top of the already strong oGCD heals that Sage has, but replace the fire and forget abilities with something that interacts with your core job mechanic.

I mean, feel free to bind/siphon additional healing potency-per-minute specifically to attacks as you wish, but that seems a separate issue.

Which seems like the better fit for what should heal more on Sage: Greater total damage in the given spell, or solely the numbers of hits it has? Effects being arbitrary, should the big lazer animation Pnuema heal for less than a bunch of wispy little muted shots via, say, Smínos Melissón ("swarm of bees")?

Is there something you specifically want from a dichotomy where some skills may deal more damage (via fewer hits) but others heal for more (via a lower total damage but more hits)? EDIT: And does that seem like a healing/damage priority lever that you want to create specifically in that way?

[Absurdity]

I mean, feel free to bind/siphon additional healing potency-per-minute specifically to attacks as you wish, but that seems a separate issue.

Which seems like the better fit for what should heal more on Sage: Greater total damage in the given spell, or solely the numbers of hits it has? Effects being arbitrary, should the big lazer animation Pnuema heal for less than a bunch of wispy little muted shots via, say, Smínos Melissón ("swarm of bees")?

What if we changed the big laser to a barrage of (maybe medium-sized) lasers, doing 4 hits and 4 instances of Kardia healing? Granted it would heal more than the laser currently does and have some awkward damage potencies, but that can always be adjusted. Nobody said that the spell needs to look whispy and little just because it's multi-hit.

Is there something you specifically want from a dichotomy where some skills may deal more damage (via fewer hits) but others heal for more (via a lower total damage but more hits)? EDIT: And does that seem like a healing/damage priority lever that you want to create specifically in that way?

What I want from this Dichotomy is simply more spells and abilities that interact with Kardia and funnel more of our current healing through that mechanic, be that through increased healing from proccing multiple instances or changing the function of what it does.
Spreading it to the party, increasing it's healing potency or maybe even converting the Kardia healing into a barrier are what comes to mind right away, and you could then choose on which of your skills you want to use those modifiers on.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think the plan isn't really to just staple high potency Kardia healing on top of the already strong oGCD heals that Sage has, but replace the fire and forget abilities with something that interacts with your core job mechanic.

Yeh, rather than having Physis as a standard HOT, it could have been stacks of 'everyone gets healed by AOEKardia'. Druochole could have, instead of being Lustrate 2, been 'you trigger Kardia healing 4 times with this one move', stuff like that, that incentivizes thinking about who Kardia's applied to, not just 'is it on the MT'

Trying to do an EX roulette run with no OGCDs except Krasis and Soteria is actually quite interesting, dare I say fun, because of how fast you can hot-swap Kardia from one player to another. If they shortened the CD on it from 5 down to 2s so you could swap after every GCD if needed, that'd be nice

[Post]

Yeh, rather than having Physis as a standard HOT, it could have been stacks of 'everyone gets healed by AOEKardia'. Druochole could have, instead of being Lustrate 2, been 'you trigger Kardia healing 4 times with this one move', stuff like that, that incentivizes thinking about who Kardia's applied to, not just 'is it on the MT'

Trying to do an EX roulette run with no OGCDs except Krasis and Soteria is actually quite interesting, dare I say fun, because of how fast you can hot-swap Kardia from one player to another. If they shortened the CD on it from 5 down to 2s so you could swap after every GCD if needed, that'd be nice

Kardia works like that in PvP. Just to keep that tally going for 'the PvE jobs need to take cues from the PvP ones.'

Also, I imagine that they left Kardia so undercooked because they realized they keep adding boss phases where damage goes out and there's nothing to hit. So rather than chance giving SGE just a simpler 'no enemy available' toolkit or maybe the ability to 'attack' an ally with offensive skills to proc Kardion effects when enemies aren't available, they threw their hands up out of frustration or fear of poor reception and played it safe.

You know, I often wondered why the hell they got rid of my ability to aim and control my faerie, and I think it rests on this core design.

The FFXIV devs feel that players shouldn't have to use resources outside of what they're easily given in game to succeed, and I respect that, but sometimes I think they just draw the line where it suits themselves over the players. The Faerie was perfectly manageable if you set up keybinds for Embrace, Steady, Place and Follow (all their additional actions were just turned into oGCDs that you have bound anyways), and maybe even macros if you wanted. The tools have always been there, but they concluded that they should polish off the rough edges entirely rather than putting the work to make it work as is.

Like, why wasn't the pet hotbar configurable, and why could you not tell Eos to default heal your target or targets' target? Those were functions they could have included in the UI somewhere. It wouldn't have been 'clean' so they didn't go that route.

These would be the kinds of things players from other MMOs would just learn to deal with and someone would eventually make an addon to assist with it, and I think it's that end state that SE tries to avoid, rather than just embracing that player choice in their own way by including additional actions or options in game to help those less technically savvy not miss out on an advantage.

On that note, Undraw is the weirdest action in the game's history. It was put in at a time when ASTs could draw a card they wouldn't want to play because players would otherwise need to /statusoff a drawn card with their own macro, yet it was still objectively worse because they didn't let you use Undraw while casting and there were separate ones for your Royal Road and Spread (though there was never any reason to remove these without simply playing them). It still exists today even though the reason for its existence is gone, when it literally cannot be used to a player's benefit ever, barring some glitch I don't know about. But, Undraw is an example of them working to make a system they had -- with sometimes difficult to manage technical aspects for a layperson -- usable for both that layperson and without ripping into players that enjoyed something's fun.

[Renathras]

Yeh, rather than having Physis as a standard HOT,

I know I harp on this a lot - and I'm pretty sure it's one of the things we agree on - but it's an absolute missed opportunity that SGE has literally no AOE Kardia button. It's like a no-brainer to add it, yet it's nowhere.

Worse, SGE was, instead, given these overpowered AOE oGCD heals and mitigations and even shields instead, and stuff like Pneuma. And even dumber, Kardia has a CD preventing hot-swapping it from target to target, something it DOESN'T have in PvP and has a much more engaging playstyle that way (not to mention necessary, given it has no actual heals other than Kardia effects...)