People Enjoy hard Games

[Kisshu]

To me, the biggest problem is that we got very easy normal mode stuff (dungeons, trials, 8+24 man raid) and then if you want something more challenging you have to go to Extreme trials or Savage raids. That leaves a very wide gap in the middle for the more mid-core gamers that want a challenge, but not long progs like with Extremes and up.
And then we have something like Variant/Criterion which is basicly very easy, savage and savage plus.

Personally I would love for some content of similar difficulty to on-release Orbonne Monastery, it was difficult and fun without being pushed all the way into extreme.

[Atelier-Bagur]

When most of the challenge is coordinating other players to perform well rather than yourself, then thats not challenge, thata just frustrating.

Its why trying to use the Dark Souls or Elden Ring analogy doesnt apply with MMOs because the reason its super popular is because those are solo challenges which have more room for finding satisfaction and reward.

Im not too keen with FFXIV's strict and formulaic raid design where almost everything is a straight dance. It got boring for me after a while.

No joke, I had more fun running Dun Scaith with randos than Pandemonium with people I mostly know because theres a larger margin of error and good players can still save the whole group from large mistakes rather than one player messing up the whole raid. Hot take here

[Absimiliard]

Its why trying to use the Dark Souls or Elden Ring analogy doesnt apply with MMOs because the reason its super popular is because those are solo challenges which have more room for finding satisfaction and reward.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head here. I believe this is a big part of the raid scene in MMOs across the board going into decline as it has. Part of it is of course also the result of the genre itself being in a state of decline, but that's a different discussion entirely. At the end of the day, most people do want a challenge. Thing is players nowadays tend to prefer facing challenges on their own terms and overcoming them on their own merits, absent the help (or more likely hindrance) of others. The herding of cats truly does typify your average MMO raiding experience, and that just gets old after a while.

No joke, I had more fun running Dun Scaith with randos than Pandemonium with people I mostly know because theres a larger margin of error and good players can still save the whole group from large mistakes rather than one player messing up the whole raid. Hot take here

I'm not so sure if this is a hot take. Burnout is real, and it's becoming increasingly common these days. Most of the raiders I know have decided to become casual players and use the game to unwind after work. They turn a Soulslike or whip out ye olde Battle Toads if they want to overcome a challenge.

[Post]

Here's the thing though, Dun Scaith has teeth.

It's recoverable, but it has teeth.

Compare it to Nophica, who is basically the endboss for sirensong sea (except she hits the tank less hard) and Menphina who will actually aim her half room cleave at 0 players in a raid of goddamn 24.

There's too much difficulty and not allowing your support jobs to step up and save the run between so many body checks, and such tight mechanics that there's basically only one way to actually succeed something that appears complex, and then there's enough difficulty that players at least feel engaged by more than just the sound and graphic design. You know, like a game. Not a movie.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Here's the thing though, Dun Scaith has teeth.

It's recoverable, but it has teeth.

The last in each set of alliance raids keeps better than the two before it, since they're closer to the item level sync. Compare World of Darkness to Labyrinth of the Ancients, or Paradigm's Breach to Copied Factory, or Orbonne (even after Thunder God's nerf) to Rabanastre.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Here's the thing though, Dun Scaith has teeth.

It's recoverable, but it has teeth.

Compare it to Nophica, who is basically the endboss for sirensong sea (except she hits the tank less hard) and Menphina who will actually aim her half room cleave at 0 players in a raid of goddamn 24.

There's too much difficulty and not allowing your support jobs to step up and save the run between so many body checks, and such tight mechanics that there's basically only one way to actually succeed something that appears complex, and then there's enough difficulty that players at least feel engaged by more than just the sound and graphic design. You know, like a game. Not a movie.

The Diabolos fight is still the most chaotic normal alliance raid fight that we've gotten imo. At least 2nd phase where there's so much crap to watch out for and anyone hitting those dark spheres will most likely bounce to a player affecting them and create a string of oopsy daisies.

Its awesome

[Supersnow845]

The Diabolos fight is still the most chaotic normal alliance raid fight that we've gotten imo. At least 2nd phase where there's so much crap to watch out for and anyone hitting those dark spheres will most likely bounce to a player affecting them and create a string of oopsy daisies.

Its awesome

Once again field content sets the bar high for what content should be in this game

I’d also argue TA’s temperature mechanic killing you instantly for a failure and twice come ruin on DRN’s attacks alongside diablos are the perfect examples of that midcore difficulty we should be aiming for

[Renathras]

Once again field content sets the bar high for what content should be in this game

I’d also argue TA’s temperature mechanic killing you instantly for a failure and twice come ruin on DRN’s attacks alongside diablos are the perfect examples of that midcore difficulty we should be aiming for

I'm not sure anything "killing you instantly for a failure" is a good description of "midcore" difficulty.

[ChrysOCE]

I'm not sure anything "killing you instantly for a failure" is a good description of "midcore" difficulty.

I would say it is, if it doesn't result in the entire party wiping (sure, you could have everyone fail it). It's a "challenging" mechanic but it's not savage-level, where if you fail it, everyone wipes, even if they do theirs correctly.

Also, to be precise, it's not instantly for failure. It's failing twice in a row within an allotted timeframe. - oh, i was thinking of twice come ruin, not the temperature mechanic. But still, it's an individual mechanic, not a party wipe mechanic.

[Noumenon]

The Diabolos fight is still the most chaotic normal alliance raid fight that we've gotten imo. At least 2nd phase where there's so much crap to watch out for and anyone hitting those dark spheres will most likely bounce to a player affecting them and create a string of oopsy daisies.

Its awesome

Agreed. And yet... people are saying that is not "midcore". Apparently TA and DA are now "hardcore" fights.