Wishlist for the expansion

[Cabalabob]

What new skills are we hoping to see for our existing jobs with the expansion? Obviously we’ll be getting upgrades to existing skills and probably some new skills to increase our dps. But other than that, what else are you hoping to see added on that’s new?

PLD
A raise spell, probably with some limits placed on it like a cooldown and requiring requiescat or all your mp to use it or something, but there is honestly very little else I want for PLD at this point.

WAR
No idea, WAR is in a very good spot right now and already has a bloated arsenal, I can’t picture anything they could add that wouldn’t be met with “oh so now WAR can do that too?”. But if I had to pick something? Maybe give it a discount version of cover? E.G. defender: link yourself to a target party member, take 50% of the damage taken by the target in their place. Cost 50 beast gauge.

DRK
I think DRK really needs to bring in some self sustain this expansion, it’s fallen so far behind the other tanks it’s gotten absurd. Perhaps some kind of dark magic version of PLDs confiteor combo that drains health.

GNB
I was thinking it would be fun for GNB to get a reverse passage of arms, where they debuff the enemy with a conal attack rather than protect the party. Think BLU’s phantom flurry but with a damage down debuff. E.G. lionheart: slash the enemy in a cone before you dealing damage over the next 5 seconds, pressing the ability again deals a final strike, applies a stacking damage down debuff for each hit.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

What new skills are we hoping to see for our existing jobs with the expansion? Obviously we’ll be getting upgrades to existing skills and probably some new skills to increase our dps. But other than that, what else are you hoping to see added on that’s new?

PLD
A raise spell, probably with some limits placed on it like a cooldown and requiring requiescat or all your mp to use it or something, but there is honestly very little else I want for PLD at this point.

WAR
No idea, WAR is in a very good spot right now and already has a bloated arsenal, I can’t picture anything they could add that wouldn’t be met with “oh so now WAR can do that too?”. But if I had to pick something? Maybe give it a discount version of cover? E.G. defender: link yourself to a target party member, take 50% of the damage taken by the target in their place. Cost 50 beast gauge.

DRK
I think DRK really needs to bring in some self sustain this expansion, it’s fallen so far behind the other tanks it’s gotten absurd. Perhaps some kind of dark magic version of PLDs confiteor combo that drains health.

GNB
I was thinking it would be fun for GNB to get a reverse passage of arms, where they debuff the enemy with a conal attack rather than protect the party. Think BLU’s phantom flurry but with a damage down debuff. E.G. lionheart: slash the enemy in a cone before you dealing damage over the next 5 seconds, pressing the ability again deals a final strike, applies a stacking damage down debuff for each hit.

Paladin got cucked in the DPS department the entire expansion and you want to give the devs another reason to do so, hard pass. We have enough jobs that can raise, maybe the new caster can have a raise, or maybe it will be another greedy caster, like BLM. But when RDM and SMN are punished for just possessing a raise, never mind if they also have to use it, no thanks.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

What new skills are we hoping to see for our existing jobs with the expansion? Obviously we’ll be getting upgrades to existing skills and probably some new skills to increase our dps. But other than that, what else are you hoping to see added on that’s new?

PLD
A raise spell, probably with some limits placed on it like a cooldown and requiring requiescat or all your mp to use it or something, but there is honestly very little else I want for PLD at this point.

WAR
No idea, WAR is in a very good spot right now and already has a bloated arsenal, I can’t picture anything they could add that wouldn’t be met with “oh so now WAR can do that too?”. But if I had to pick something? Maybe give it a discount version of cover? E.G. defender: link yourself to a target party member, take 50% of the damage taken by the target in their place. Cost 50 beast gauge.

DRK
I think DRK really needs to bring in some self sustain this expansion, it’s fallen so far behind the other tanks it’s gotten absurd. Perhaps some kind of dark magic version of PLDs confiteor combo that drains health.

GNB
I was thinking it would be fun for GNB to get a reverse passage of arms, where they debuff the enemy with a conal attack rather than protect the party. Think BLU’s phantom flurry but with a damage down debuff. E.G. lionheart: slash the enemy in a cone before you dealing damage over the next 5 seconds, pressing the ability again deals a final strike, applies a stacking damage down debuff for each hit.

Ok I was really wondering if I should reply but I re-read your suggestions and I think I need to give some input...

Paladin - for starters, Paladin can take many routes and changes that can make it a better tank, such as a Trait that will give Paladins Spellspeed equal to Skillspeed / Spells will scale with Skillspeed, giving Sentinel (and equivalents for other tanks) an extra effect a la Vengeance making Passage of Arms either have a high damage ranged finisher after 5s (to compensate for dmg loss) or making it like Temperance.

Or how about we just plain remove Cover's 50 Oath cost so it stops being a terrible cooldown that people don't want to experiment with?

A Raise that can only be used in your most prominent damage phase AND cost you your entire MP is quite frankly the worst idea I have seen for Paladin so far. Nobody would ever use this, full-stop. You'd sacrifice a beyond-stupid amount of damage that you'd probably be better off if your Healer hardcasted a Raise.

Warrior - plenty of ways they could make Warrior more interesting, such as making a two-fold gauge system, "Wrath & Abandon" (the buff names of their rage stacks in Heavensward) to spend on Inner Beast / Fell Cleave or AOE variants respectively and different combos granting different amounts of gauge (and them interacting with each other). Or Upheaval and Orogeny being decoupled from each other and being sort of a combo, like using Upheaval makes the next Orogeny do Upheaval potency and Orogeny making next Upheaval AOE.

But an awful version of Cover *along with* a damage cost? This one people "might" use in an absolute pinch but nowhere else. Unlike Cover this is just a pain split, so you might generate more negative effects from it.


Putting it bluntly out here - don't suggest things that cost you a metric ton of damage to use.

Dark Knight - DRK isn't so far behind in terms of survival as people think they are and more recovery isn't a necessity, however it would be fitting. Some suggestions from the top of my head:

- Stalwart Soul: Combo finisher now has 200-300 heal potency (think like Souleater).
- TBN break: grants a regen effect (meh) OR make Dark Arts: Edge/Flood of Shadow have heal potency (like 600p)
- Shadow Wall: a portion of damage taken is compiled and will heal for that amount after effect finishes
- Blood Spender / MP Spender (either/or): add heal potency to it

Among other things - give Dark Mind the Addle treatment so it is 20% magic, 10% physical reduction. This would help a TON for the complaints about pre-70 survival and would deal with some of the shenanigans we have like with P11S having virtually no worthwhile usecase for this ability. And as with Paladin, a trait to deal with the skillspeed-spellspeed conundrum would be splendid.

Gunbreaker - I like the idea, mainly because I find channeled abilities if they don't last too long interesting. We have a similar thing in PvP, Relentless Rush (their Limit Break) works exactly like this, except it's a circle AOE and they can move. As much as I dread it, could also see a Continuation for Fated Circle happen, or changing the cartridge combo into frontal cleaves (with like -70-80% after first target because my lord would that be broken in Ultimates with two targets).

You got good ideas, you got some bad ideas. Keep cooking with the tip I gave you.

[Cabalabob]

Paladin - A Raise that can only be used in your most prominent damage phase AND cost you your entire MP is quite frankly the worst idea I have seen for Paladin so far. Nobody would ever use this, full-stop. You'd sacrifice a beyond-stupid amount of damage that you'd probably be better off if your Healer hardcasted a Raise.

Your healer can’t hard cast a raise if they’re dead. That’s the point of the limitations including the high dps cost, this isn’t meant to be a raise to save people dps, it’s meant to be a raise to save a wipe at the cost of dps. There are so many times I’ve seen situations where it’s just down to the tanks and they can solo/duo the rest of the fight, but that’s not fun for the rest of the party (even if it can be cool to see), but if the PLD could get a healer back up? They could get the rest of the party back into the fight, I’d say that’s worth a requiescat phase.

Warrior - But an awful version of Cover *along with* a damage cost? This one people "might" use in an absolute pinch but nowhere else. Unlike Cover this is just a pain split, so you might generate more negative effects from it.


Putting it bluntly out here - don't suggest things that cost you a metric ton of damage to use.

In some ways it would be more powerful than cover. Unlike cover you’d be able to use this on a co-tank, you’d turn a single target tankbuster into a mini tank buster on both tanks which the WAR would then be able to heal through with nascent flash, but like the PLD raise this isn’t something you’d want to introduce into the meta (same reason PLDs cover got nerfed in the first place) so the damage cost is there to make sure it’s something you’d only use in an emergency.

Yes there’s stuff both these tanks could use in their existing arsenal but we’re here to talk about what’s going to be added that’s completely new. If the next expansion brings nothing but buffs to the existing kit that’s going to be a boring expansion. The idea of these new moves is to be something powerful but not something you’ll use often.

Warrior - plenty of ways they could make Warrior more interesting, such as making a two-fold gauge system, "Wrath & Abandon"

Incidentally, my idea for a WAR rework was similar to this. Bring back defiance and deliverance, not as tank and dps stance, but as MT and OT stance (and give them a new tank stance obviously). Where defiance would give access to WAR’s utility moves such as nascent flash, equilibrium and shake it off, while deliverance would give access to self mitigation skills like raw intuition, vengeance and thrill of battle.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Your healer can’t hard cast a raise if they’re dead. That’s the point of the limitations including the high dps cost, this isn’t meant to be a raise to save people dps, it’s meant to be a raise to save a wipe at the cost of dps. There are so many times I’ve seen situations where it’s just down to the tanks and they can solo/duo the rest of the fight, but that’s not fun for the rest of the party (even if it can be cool to see), but if the PLD could get a healer back up? They could get the rest of the party back into the fight, I’d say that’s worth a requiescat phase.

Realistically the only place where raising a healer is even a necessity is when you are in a dungeon and your only healer dies and you got neither a Summoner or a Red Mage. The problem herein is that dungeons are currently designed that you can basically IGNORE the healer's death and just walk over bosses. All DPS jobs have a modicum of sustain or shielding available to them and all four tank jobs have varying degrees of healing and/or shielding they can give to the remaining DPS. In 8man raids if you lost not one but both healers AND have no raise-casters, you have bigger problems than "man I wish I had a tank that could raise".

The requiescat phase being dropped completely is an unbelievable damage loss that I'd rather let the healer stay dead for the remainder of what amounts to 2-3min of a boss fight than to get them up with zero MP remaining to even use Clemency on them due to the 10000MP cost you suggested. Sacrificing 8s of GCDs due to casting is one thing, losing your entire Blade combo AND all of your MP is worth it in zero types of content. If you are so hellbent on a raise, don't make it cost your bloody Requiescat phase, it is otherwise dead utility only used by turbo casuals what could be a genuinely better ability in that slot.

In some ways it would be more powerful than cover. Unlike cover you’d be able to use this on a co-tank, you’d turn a single target tankbuster into a mini tank buster on both tanks which the WAR would then be able to heal through with nascent flash, but like the PLD raise this isn’t something you’d want to introduce into the meta (same reason PLDs cover got nerfed in the first place) so the damage cost is there to make sure it’s something you’d only use in an emergency.

Yes there’s stuff both these tanks could use in their existing arsenal but we’re here to talk about what’s going to be added that’s completely new. If the next expansion brings nothing but buffs to the existing kit that’s going to be a boring expansion. The idea of these new moves is to be something powerful but not something you’ll use often.

Again, there is zero justification for why you should put a utility behind an obligatory gauge- and therefore damage-cost if it most likely already has a cooldown to restrict the frequent use.

Furthermore this utility in terms of busters only really works well on busters that are single target and don't force swaps. Otherwise it is "pick a dps/healer of choice and hope they live with half the damage taken". Without gauge cost it is an okay utility, with it it is pure garbage.

Incidentally, my idea for a WAR rework was similar to this. Bring back defiance and deliverance, not as tank and dps stance, but as MT and OT stance (and give them a new tank stance obviously). Where defiance would give access to WAR’s utility moves such as nascent flash, equilibrium and shake it off, while deliverance would give access to self mitigation skills like raw intuition, vengeance and thrill of battle.

My idea of such a rendition is less about "MT / OT" stance and more gauge-based stances. Both sides would effectively create the same damage, but using skills from one side would give you extra gauge for the other and vice versa. It also wouldn't restrict utility and defensive tools from each other. I might genuinely make a thread about what I have in mind, I'll happily link you that one here if you want it once I made it.

[Cabalabob]

If you are so hellbent on a raise, don't make it cost your bloody Requiescat phase, it is otherwise dead utility only used by turbo casuals what could be a genuinely better ability in that slot.


Again, there is zero justification for why you should put a utility behind an obligatory gauge- and therefore damage-cost if it most likely already has a cooldown to restrict the frequent use.

To be clear, it’s not ME that wants these drawbacks to the skills. I’d be perfectly happy with copy paste raise for PLD and for WAR to get a utility move like that with no strings attached. But we both know SE won’t go for that due to their strict balance (see current cover and it’s pointless oath gauge cost, shield bash and the fact that literally everything is immune to stun, TBN and it’s janky mp cost, the balancing act between invulns). They simply don’t want jobs to have anything unique without some kind of drawback that makes it totally niche where it otherwise could be something that leads to unique and interesting strats.

Maybe my drawbacks are a bit overzealous, but it’s the kind of thing I’d expect SE to attach to such skills, not because I personally want those drawbacks. Could they have something more useful in its place? Maybe, but that’s just it. PLD and WAR are in a pretty good place, they have great self sustain, personal mitigation and group utility and in WARs case it also has high dps. Unlike DRK and GNB which still have gaps to fill, these jobs don’t NEED anything, so would it hurt them to get something unique, even if it gets nerfed so hard that it will only have niche use cases?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

To be clear, it’s not ME that wants these drawbacks to the skills. I’d be perfectly happy with copy paste raise for PLD and for WAR to get a utility move like that with no strings attached. But we both know SE won’t go for that due to their strict balance (see current cover and it’s pointless oath gauge cost, shield bash and the fact that literally everything is immune to stun, TBN and it’s janky mp cost, the balancing act between invulns). They simply don’t want jobs to have anything unique without some kind of drawback that makes it totally niche where it otherwise could be something that leads to unique and interesting strats.

Maybe my drawbacks are a bit overzealous, but it’s the kind of thing I’d expect SE to attach to such skills, not because I personally want those drawbacks. Could they have something more useful in its place? Maybe, but that’s just it. PLD and WAR are in a pretty good place, they have great self sustain, personal mitigation and group utility and in WARs case it also has high dps. Unlike DRK and GNB which still have gaps to fill, these jobs don’t NEED anything, so would it hurt them to get something unique, even if it gets nerfed so hard that it will only have niche use cases?

Maybe design ideas not with what Creative Business Unit 3's devs have in mind when theys have a track record of making terrible design decisions and don't double down on what is already bad by making even worse designs.

You have the freedom to literally think of anything and you choose to restrict yourself to their balancing philosophy. Why?

(also TBN MP cost is hardly as jank as being the last damn mechanic a DRK needs to have a braincell for so if they remove the MP cost I will f-ing riot.)

[Jkap_Goat]

Paladin got cucked in the DPS department the entire expansion and you want to give the devs another reason to do so, hard pass. We have enough jobs that can raise, maybe the new caster can have a raise, or maybe it will be another greedy caster, like BLM. But when RDM and SMN are punished for just possessing a raise, never mind if they also have to use it, no thanks.

PLD is literally a tank who could use White Magic so PLD being able to use Raise is not unusual

in FFXI, PLD has access to Raise so yeah, not unusual. BLM is known to use Black Magics and they don't have access to Raises, so no, very weird to give them a raise ability

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

PLD is literally a tank who could use White Magic so PLD being able to use Raise is not unusual

in FFXI, PLD has access to Raise so yeah, not unusual. BLM is known to use Black Magics and they don't have access to Raises, so no, very weird to give them a raise ability

I don't think Paladin having a raise is so much of an issue as the way OP suggested it by requiring Requiescat and 10000 MP...

Though quite honestly, I'd prefer other White Magic abilities over Raise, like an AOE clemency maybe or a dome of "if you attack while in it you heal for X heal potency" (Sacred Claim from PvP but as a dome effect rather than a debuff).

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

PLD is literally a tank who could use White Magic so PLD being able to use Raise is not unusual

in FFXI, PLD has access to Raise so yeah, not unusual. BLM is known to use Black Magics and they don't have access to Raises, so no, very weird to give them a raise ability

Go play FFXI then?

I would never have guessed Paladin has access to white magic based on the naming conventions of certain spells and actions, nope...

The simple fact is, it would not work in FFXIV, Paladin is already over bloated with utility, it does not need more, nor does it need the damage penalty for just possessing a raise. If you haven't notice, the tank damage output balance has been beyond atrocious this expac, borderline HW levels bad and Paladin especially does not need a raise as stupidly suggested as in the OP, as rightly was said, it would never be used.

FFXIV is a game based around doing as much DPS as possible, especially at the top end of content, so doing something that will hamstring your job is terrible, and is not even remotely in line with job designs in FFXIV.

Further we already have enough jobs that have the capacity to raise, adding another raise on a job doesn't make sense practically.

I am well aware of BLM lore, my point was that the new caster may share in not being capable of a raise to give BLM a bit of competition as the selfish caster, not that BLM should be able to raise, I think BLM not having a raise is perfectly fine.