If you're unhappy with this game then unsub... forever.

[Jojoya]

So why do the jobs have to be gutted beyond their SB designs? If newer players are neutral and veterans are unhappy then the net result is unhappy.

I wasn't trying to pass judgement on the state of job design overall or state that they need to be gutted. I agree some improvement would be good, assuming it doesn't involve button bloat. There's a point where too many different actions is worse than not enough.

No, people gravitate to meta jobs. WAR, DNC, and SMN are all meta for casual prog because of WAR's Holmgang for PF invuln strats, SMN for raise and the high mobility, and DNC+SAM is one of the easiest way to boost your rDPS. DRK is actually the most played tank in JP, along with SAM being the most played DPS. A lot of people don't actually like playing DRK though. These statistics don't show anything other than what's meta.

Nerf WAR's self-sustain and you'll see WAR becoming far less popular.

Also, a lot of people gravitate to jobs because of the visuals. How do you disentangle the % of players picking up a job because of the visuals vs. them picking it up because of the simplicity? A lot of players play DNC, WHM, and SMN purely because of the class fantasy, not because of the mechanics.

It's raiders who use PF that gravitate toward meta jobs, not casual players in general. Those who don't raid are free to play whatever they want. Those who have a static are also generally free to use what they want as long as the roles needed get filled.

Those who rely on PF feel constricted by what the raiding community has decided is meta because if their job isn't part of the meta, it's harder to get accepted into a group. That could be solved by starting the PF but a lot of players prefer to avoid anything that smacks of responsibility, such as being a party leader.

It will always be a problem in MMOs until such time as player communities decide metas aren't accomplishing anything, and I doubt that will ever happen.

Not really.
- Right now you use every skill when it's ready (if not paired with a DRG) <-- need some adjustment
- SAM needs situational abilities
- SAM needs the merging of some single/multi target version abilities.

Oh, I'm not saying that SAM players really do like button bloat, only that the uproar over Kaiten leaves that impression. It's hard to say how the developers will interpret it.

Bard is easy too. We all know Fisher is the hardest job in the game. Having to go around looking for fishing spots. Going underwater to hunt them with spears. Fighting off random bears and retainers trying to mug you for your catch... >.>

Your roof nails are more in danger from my retainers than your fish.

[Renathras]

Because if people take their time to criticise a game they are actively playing, they are doing it because THEY CARE. They like some aspects of it, but think that others could use improvement. Wanting something you enjoy to be the best it possibly can be isn't that outlandish of a concept, surely?

The people who just hate everything aren't taking the time to post their criticism. They just leave.

SOME people yes.

But no, there are some posters here who legitimately hate the game and/or are trolls about it. They're also the most prolific starters of threads about how they dislike the game. It's false that people who hate everything just leave. Some people have to feel validation from others, so they try to get others to hate the game as much as they do.

The way to spot the difference:

People who care criticize the game but not other players.
People who hate harp on the game but also attack anyone who defends it even partially as not being terrible.

There's a point where too many different actions is worse than not enough.

Very much agreed. I posted a thread in the healer forum, but the tl;dr of it is that about 2/5ths of the Jobs have 27, 30, 31, or 32 buttons. The other 3/5ths (more than half) have 33, 34, 35, 36, or 37 (PLD). Some absolutely justify that as the buttons all are useful and interesting enough to justify a hotbar slot...but a lot have fat to trim where they really don't. And it's not always the ones you think. MNK has the fewest buttons of any Melee Job at 31, but pretty much all of them are relevant and its one of the more complex Jobs in the game to optimize, despite that. RPR has 2 more at 33 but is easier. So number of buttons doesn't really guarantee simple or harder gameplay and more speaks to hotbar efficiency (buttons that change on context, like Paradox sharing the Blizzard 1/Fire 1 button) and Jobs that have a lot of random stuff. Some with lots of buttons absolutely justify them, but others less so. Either way, though, 30 is a lot of buttons, and SMN is the only Job in the game that doesn't have that or more (SMN at 27 and MCH at 30 are the only two in the game that have 30 or less)

It's raiders who use PF that gravitate toward meta jobs, not casual players in general.

Also this.

Casuals play whatever they feel like. Many aren't even aware the forbidden site, the Balance, or other meta stuff even exists, and aren't chasing it. They're playing what feels fun to them and what they think they do well on or simply enjoy. Midcore sometimes feel like they have to chase the meta, but they'll make substitutions based on their own perception of skill. One reason SGE is so popular (aside from the visuals) is that it's a slightly weaker SCH that has so much less jank, players feel they can be more competent playing it. RDM is also wildly popular with both casuals and the midcore since non-hardcore players tend to value Raises and healing spells very highly, far more than the raid community that belittles such utility and often asks for it to be removed so "SMN and RDM can be properly balanced against BLM". The rest of the playerbase likes those spells being there and it's one reason they enjoy the Jobs. (Never mind it's yet another case of the hardcores asking for homogenization they'll later then complain about all the Jobs being too similar if it happens...)

.

The idea that everyone behaves like hardcores do, that casuals (especially) and the midcore act the same as what a hardcore thinks they should, or that all these changes are made for the sake of casuals, is just so weird, yet so persistent. It's as persistent as it is wrong; which is very much so.