G-give it Back T---T; !!

[Deo14]

I still don't understand how they ended up adding Shoha 2 without first changing how Shoha worked since they wanted to reduce button bloat, a simple solution would have been to have Shoha replace Hakaze and Shoha 2 replace Fuga when you got your 3 stacks (just add Hakaze's potency to Shoha and Fuga's to Shoha 2 to prevent any dps loss) but no, let's get rid of that one skill a lot of people enjoy using and save one key instead of 2.

It's just mind blowing, as if they used a dice 20 on a 5 difficulty roll and get a 1 (too much Baldur's gate 3 lately).

I agree with sentiment, but that suggestion is terrible, you're supposed to pool meditation stacks, just like any resource. There's period of like 15 seconds before burst where you hold all 3 stacks all the way until the start of burst. Solution for button bloat (btw, they never said anything about button bloat to my knowledge, that's community made) would be merging Iki+Ogi, Kyuten+Shinten, Senei+Guren, Shoha 1+2, and voila, 4 less buttons, even with Kaiten, SAM would have like 2 buttons less than average job.

Only bloat-related reasoning which devs talked about is action bloat. But that makes no sense, APM in burst is identical (at maximum, you do 1/2 less action in burst if you pool Kenki properly), and you even use same amount of distinct buttons, because now you need to use gap closer to spend the last 10 Kenki:

[CelestiCer]

...Kaiten simply fit perfectly into the Kenki management, it was made for it and was more interesting to use than just bland damage oGCD. That's job design reason, but satisfying animation and similar are also rightful reasons.

There's obviously more to this than just Kaiten, 6.1 had like 22 changes to SAM. Circle Tenka and guaranteed crits are also bad, but people just usually talk about Kaiten since it's biggest outlier. If you want to go more in depth, this whole topic has been discussed through and through in 100+ posts in DPS subforums already.

Indeed. I personally was not a fan of the following changes next to Kaiten removal...

• Tenka Goken turned into a Circle
• Senei/Guren cost decreased by half
• Seigan removal
• Senei introduced next to Guren
• Shoha II introduced next to Shoha II

The changes served to reward laziness for equal/more damage performance, making it no where near as satisfying to execute. " Kaiten removal" stood out due to gameplay going to Shinten Spamming yes, but also the Dev's lying about the reasons for its removal as the reasons they gave were... well to put it blunt... bulls**t. Kaiten removal is but a tiny detail of what SE has done... chipping away at every bit of complexity other Jobs had. An obsession to optimally streamline everything for the unreachable perfect balance at the cost of Job gameplay...

The player audience between w/e is casual and hardcore are seemingly being erased. Casual players will be served more Casual content, while hardcore raiders are more obsessed with fights/mechanics content, leaving less and less for what's in between as Square removes any ounce of skill-expression there is left from Jobs they continuously simplify. I believe SE can do way better then this, simply because they have in the past.

More buttons for the sake of more is equally as faulty as Less buttons for the sake of Less. Strike a balance, grant Job-execution some depth that doesn't raise the Skill-Floor to keep it player-friendly yet lift the Skill-ceiling as optional skill-expression to make mastering jobs feel rewarding... Remove something only when ready to replace it with something immediately instead of leaving an empty space for an excessive long period that fixed and improved absolutely nothing...

[DayHealer]

Samurai and Dark knight mains are just weebs.

Ok I said it, now you can downvote me. Wait this is not reddit..

[Renathras]

I just want Kaiten back for you guys. I don't even play SAM but you guys and more clearly want it so why not put it back in as it was?

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

[Aword3213]

Samurai and Dark knight mains are just weebs.

Ok I said it, now you can downvote me. Wait this is not reddit..

Then I'm a happy weeb

[Deo14]

This is my position as well.

It IS an obsession, people that want it back ARE irrational in how they will lash out at anyone they perceive as preventing that (even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them), but I personally don't care. If it made people happy, give it back to them? As long as it isn't making a bunch of other people upset, what's the harm? No one hurt, lots more happy, win-win/net positive.

I won't disagree with that, but I really hope that you're not speaking about yourself when you said "even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them". You've made single argument in the DPS subforum, and that is that there are "well thought out counters to it having been removed" from theory crafters and guide makers. I've asked you for the source in like 4 instances in span of 2 days, do you mind finally linking them, or did you just made it up without any source? Come on, just link it, I want to have a good laugh about what some theory crafters and guide makers think about job design.

[Avoidy]

You think the new Melee Job is going to be Corsair.
But you have been deceived...

The new Job will be...

...Kaiten.

Kaiten will be the Job. The entire Job will be Kaiten. All buttons will be Kaiten. You will Kaiten your Kaiten before Kaitening. All buttons, all animations, all resource management; the Job will be Kaiten. The full and complete embodiment of Kaiten, having thrown off its ephemeral imperfections. When you change into the Job, the Job stone will he the Kaiten icon, and your character will turn into the Kaiten icon. It won't even have arms and legs, that would be imperfect. It will just be the Kaiten icon floating in the air, performing Kaiten.

The tagline at the end of the full DawnTrail trailer will be thus:

"Become what you must. Become the Warrior of Kaiten."

you meme, but after watching them gut AST and distribute its skills across the healer role and then cleave out its sect system so sage wouldn't feel intimidated, I'd bet 11 dollars that the new melee job has some pre-emptive button you press before doing your actual chunky skill that reminds people of kaiten. they kinda did it with the aoes too, didn't they? removed conal from jobs that had it for years, replacing it with awkward circle aoes. but then randomly gave conal aoes to other slightly newer jobs ... was it rpr? I don't remember. main point being, they love removing stuff and then returning it later but to other jobs entirely lol

[Renathras]

I won't disagree with that, but I really hope that you're not speaking about yourself when you said "even if said person has actual arguments or is offering fair rebuttal to them". You've made single argument in the DPS subforum, and that is that there are "well thought out counters to it having been removed" from theory crafters and guide makers. I've asked you for the source in like 4 instances in span of 2 days, do you mind finally linking them, or did you just made it up without any source? Come on, just link it, I want to have a good laugh about what some theory crafters and guide makers think about job design.

Nice way to try framing the conversation.

For those interested, Deo is referencing this thread, feel free to go there and tell her what you think personally: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...lay-FF14-again

Because I didn't outright say "Yeah, everyone agrees, add Kaiten back!" and pointed out that there are people who disagree, I DARED to challenge "unanimity", she's spent about 5 pages of that thread in increasingly unhinged baby attacks, trying to bring up other threads, and even though her initial post to me was about a technicality, she later claimed I was the one arguing technicalities. In order to save face, she's now bringing up other threads and discussions from other parts of the forum, posting memes, deriding my posts, and trying to change the subject instead of just admitting her initial actions were wrong.

And when I pointed out she doesn't want links in good faith so it's a waste of my time to post them, she even proves me right here "I want to have a good laugh about" it. She has no interest in seriously considering it NOR about admitting that support for Katien being returned isn't universal.

And the thing is, she's picking a fight with me while I'm literally saying to give her what she wants.

Not only will she not take the L, she won't take yes for an answer.

That's the kind of unhinged we're working with. For once I agree with Twinpeaks and AwesomeJr.

[Deo14]

Nice way to try framing the conversation.

For those interested, Deo is referencing this thread, feel free to go there and tell her what you think personally: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...lay-FF14-again

Because I didn't outright say "Yeah, everyone agrees, add Kaiten back!" and pointed out that there are people who disagree, I DARED to challenge "unanimity", she's spent about 5 pages of that thread in increasingly unhinged baby attacks, trying to bring up other threads, and even though her initial post to me was about a technicality, she later claimed I was the one arguing technicalities. In order to save face, she's now bringing up other threads and discussions from other parts of the forum, posting memes, deriding my posts, and trying to change the subject instead of just admitting her initial actions were wrong.

And when I pointed out she doesn't want links in good faith so it's a waste of my time to post them, she even proves me right here "I want to have a good laugh about" it. She has no interest in seriously considering it NOR about admitting that support for Katien being returned isn't universal.

And the thing is, she's picking a fight with me while I'm literally saying to give her what she wants.

Not only will she not take the L, she won't take yes for an answer.

That's the kind of unhinged we're working with. For once I agree with Twinpeaks and AwesomeJr.

I said "pretty much unanimously", yet you somehow made whole argument that I was saying that every 100% of players agrees with it. Also, there was other person in the thread who wanted those links, so just link it not for me, but for her? And yes, I don't want those links in good faith, I know I'll just laugh reading them, just like you wanted links for my data back in "Just quit" thread in a bad faith, except that I did give them to you, and then you discredited them.

Just some interesting info for others - this guy doesn't even have leveled SAM.

[CaptainLagbeard]

I don't really miss Kaiten... It was a button that more or less punished you when it doesn't activate despite you pressing it.


But if we're gonna talk about bringing stuff back, how about pre-6.3 PLD, their attempts to change the class to fit their obsession with burst windows nerfed it quite bad. and I'm pretty sure it does even less burst damage now than it did before...