G-give it Back T---T; !!

[CelestiCer]

... Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button ...

Blasphemous...

That our gameplay devolved into Shinten spamming has been noted endless times. The unhappiness is also because the Dev's asked feedback, that we gave and got ignored. After a while? their response was to tackle DPS variance with Auto-Crit. Kaiten removal was unnecessary to introduce Auto-Crit so this excuse was appalling... Kaiten could have even been the reason that we Auto-Crit, I still would not have liked this change - but even this they didn't do.

The second response to the negative backlash was they wanted to tackle " Bloat ", again making no sense as they could have easily merged/combined/fused the following...

• Shoha I and Shoha II
• Ikishoten and Ogi Namikiri
• Senei and Guren

...Solving actual bloat and keeping Hissatsu: Kaiten.

The argument to give up anything in exchange for something new and better is a fools view to an empty promise of something that might never arrive. They should remove something until they have something to replace it with. Perhaps its mistranslation? not Button Bloat but Action Bloat? which we tested and debunked, as our new non-Kaiten rotation did not reduce our CPM/APM.

The way this all was handled around 6.1 left a bitter taste as we felt lied to. Nothing justified turning our gameplay into Shinten spamming and there's no sign that SE will stop with hollowing out Job designs as they announce new reworks. We voice our concerns due to our passion... as we are told by Yoshi P to do on the Forums, the place to post feedback? only then to be told we should be silent cause we're fill in label i.e obsessive... Somehow never surprises me how we're more focused on how much we can paint another persons posts in a negative light over what we write can be used as meaningful feedback to positively impact the game or the experience for players.

[AlexiaD]

Blasphemous...

That our gameplay devolved into Shinten spamming has been noted endless times. The unhappiness is also because the Dev's asked feedback, that we gave and got ignored. After a while? their response was to tackle DPS variance with Auto-Crit. Kaiten removal was unnecessary to introduce Auto-Crit so this excuse was appalling... Kaiten could have even been the reason that we Auto-Crit, I still would not have liked this change - but even this they didn't do.

The second response to the negative backlash was they wanted to tackle " Bloat ", again making no sense as they could have easily merged/combined/fused the following...

• Shoha I and Shoha II
• Ikishoten and Ogi Namikiri
• Senei and Guren

...Solving actual bloat and keeping Hissatsu: Kaiten.

The argument to give up anything in exchange for something new and better is a fools view to an empty promise of something that might never arrive. They should remove something until they have something to replace it with. Perhaps its mistranslation? not Button Bloat but Action Bloat? which we tested and debunked, as our new non-Kaiten rotation did not reduce our CPM/APM.

The way this all was handled around 6.1 left a bitter taste as we felt lied to. Nothing justified turning our gameplay into Shinten spamming and there's no sign that SE will stop with hollowing out Job designs as they announce new reworks. We voice our concerns due to our passion... as we are told by Yoshi P to do on the Forums, the place to post feedback? only then to be told we should be silent cause we're fill in label i.e obsessive... Somehow never surprises me how we're more focused on how much we can paint another persons posts in a negative light over what we write can be used as meaningful feedback to positively impact the game or the experience for players.

If you kept it to your own threads, it would be fine tbh, but you're spamming it all over multiple threads, including some that have nothing to do with Kaiten or even SAM in general

your post history shows that enough, and I invite anyone who doesnt believe what I say to look at OP's history themselves.

[CelestiCer]

If you kept it to your own threads, it would be fine tbh, but you're spamming it all over multiple threads, including some that have nothing to do with Kaiten or even SAM in general

your post history shows that enough

That's great, I'll take note of that.

Doubt your response would be any different if I didn't post occasional joking meme's in other threads or even deleted them now as I'm not allowed to do that like others do every now and then with your... morale high-ground because it doesn't follow your I guess interests? If you have anything else meaningful to share with us other then attempting to 1-up in responding or checking the logs/ my posting history while overly-obsessing over another's obsessive obsession... (obsession-ception? ) You're otherwise free to bump this thread as many times as you wish while continuously bringing nothing to the table. Won't hurt my feelings, mhm <3

[AlexiaD]

That's great, I'll take note of that.

Doubt your response would be any different if I didn't post occasional joking meme's in other threads or even deleted them now as I'm not allowed to do that like others do every now and then with your... morale high-ground because it doesn't follow your I guess interests? If you have anything else meaningful to share with us other then attempting to 1-up in responding or checking the logs/ my posting history while overly-obsessing over another's obsessive obsession... (obsession-ception? ) You're otherwise free to bump this thread as many times as you wish while continuously bringing nothing to the table. Won't hurt my feelings, mhm <3

Or maybe you could just yknow, keep your things to your own threads which would actually be constructive instead of spamming every thread that is not related to kaiten about it ?

Also I dont care about "bumping" your thread, nor am I here to hurt your feelings.

Your post history shows that you have 0 respect for others and that you spam every thread with your kaiten stuff, which once again shows you are weirdly obsessed about a spell in a video game.

[AwesomeJr44]

Blasphemous...

I don't even really disagree with a lot of what you said in this particular post. The devs are terrible at listening to feedback. There were much more deserving targets of getting removed/changed if the reason is button bloat. But at the same time, Kaiten wasn't an interesting button. You chained it with certain abilities in literally every case possible, making it essentially a combo action that you weaved. It should have gotten reworked to be more interesting or replaced by something else. It getting removed with no replacement is the only reason why its removal is a problem other than "I think it looked cool".

If you kept it to your own threads, it would be fine tbh, but you're spamming it all over multiple threads, including some that have nothing to do with Kaiten or even SAM in general

Yeah, pretty much this. It's just gotten annoying after you've done it a thousand times. There's only so many times you can go "but my Kaiten" before it gets old. Like I said, if this is still a relevant topic, go spam this on the DPS forums where a dev might see it.

You're otherwise free to bump this thread as many times as you wish while continuously bringing nothing to the table.

You bring nothing to the table other than thread spam more spammy than Shinten spam.

Clearly spamming "but muh kaiten" in every thread possible no matter the topic will help bring it back ! /s

I'd imagine that the devs would be less likely (than they already are) to listen to feedback when it's presented like this.

[AlexiaD]

I don't even really disagree with a lot of what you said in this particular post. The devs are terrible at listening to feedback. There were much more deserving targets of getting removed/changed if the reason is button bloat. But at the same time, Kaiten wasn't an interesting button. You clicked it in literally every case possible, making it essentially a combo action that you weaved. It should have gotten reworked to be more interesting or replaced by something else.



Yeah, pretty much this. It's just gotten annoying after you've done it a thousand times. There's only so many times you can go "but my Kaiten" before it gets old. Like I said, if this is still a relevant topic, go spam this on the DPS forums where a dev might see it.



You bring nothing to the table other than thread spam more spammy than Shinten spam.

Clearly spamming "but muh kaiten" in every thread possible no matter the topic will help bring it back ! /s

[Aravell]

Honestly, I miss Seigan more than Kaiten. It makes me sad that not many care for Seigan. SAM at 5.55 was still the best iteration IMO.

[Soge01]

While i've gotten over the off feeling with Kaiten being gone, It'd would be good to have it back because Shinten spam is a pain in the arse at times. It would also be nice if Third Eye was more useful.

[Deo14]

Most of the people that were mad over its removal aren't even really that mad about Kaiten itself, they're mad that SAM's rotation has devolved into Shinten spam. Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

... But at the same time, Kaiten wasn't an interesting button. You chained it with certain abilities in literally every case possible, making it essentially a combo action that you weaved. It should have gotten reworked to be more interesting or replaced by something else. It getting removed with no replacement is the only reason why its removal is a problem other than "I think it looked cool".

There were many discussions on this matter, but I have yet to see solid idea for a replacement. Problem is that it cannot be anything that would result in dps loss, so realistically, it would have to be higher damage than Shinten, while being locked by higher CD. But alas, that already exists, it's called Senei. Realistically, you could make something between Senei and Shinten, but you'll end up with 3 very similar skills, which sounds really uninteresting and bland. Kaiten simply fit perfectly into the Kenki management, it was made for it and was more interesting to use than just bland damage oGCD. That's job design reason, but satisfying animation and similar are also rightful reasons.

There's obviously more to this than just Kaiten, 6.1 had like 22 changes to SAM. Circle Tenka and guaranteed crits are also bad, but people just usually talk about Kaiten since it's biggest outlier. If you want to go more in depth, this whole topic has been discussed through and through in 100+ posts in DPS subforums already.

[Syln]

Blasphemous...

That our gameplay devolved into Shinten spamming has been noted endless times. The unhappiness is also because the Dev's asked feedback, that we gave and got ignored. After a while? their response was to tackle DPS variance with Auto-Crit. Kaiten removal was unnecessary to introduce Auto-Crit so this excuse was appalling... Kaiten could have even been the reason that we Auto-Crit, I still would not have liked this change - but even this they didn't do.

The second response to the negative backlash was they wanted to tackle " Bloat ", again making no sense as they could have easily merged/combined/fused the following...

• Shoha I and Shoha II
• Ikishoten and Ogi Namikiri
• Senei and Guren

...Solving actual bloat and keeping Hissatsu: Kaiten.

The argument to give up anything in exchange for something new and better is a fools view to an empty promise of something that might never arrive. They should remove something until they have something to replace it with. Perhaps its mistranslation? not Button Bloat but Action Bloat? which we tested and debunked, as our new non-Kaiten rotation did not reduce our CPM/APM.

The way this all was handled around 6.1 left a bitter taste as we felt lied to. Nothing justified turning our gameplay into Shinten spamming and there's no sign that SE will stop with hollowing out Job designs as they announce new reworks. We voice our concerns due to our passion... as we are told by Yoshi P to do on the Forums, the place to post feedback? only then to be told we should be silent cause we're fill in label i.e obsessive... Somehow never surprises me how we're more focused on how much we can paint another persons posts in a negative light over what we write can be used as meaningful feedback to positively impact the game or the experience for players.

I still don't understand how they ended up adding Shoha 2 without first changing how Shoha worked since they wanted to reduce button bloat, a simple solution would have been to have Shoha replace Hakaze and Shoha 2 replace Fuga when you got your 3 stacks (just add Hakaze's potency to Shoha and Fuga's to Shoha 2 to prevent any dps loss) but no, let's get rid of that one skill a lot of people enjoy using and save one key instead of 2.

It's just mind blowing, as if they used a dice 20 on a 5 difficulty roll and get a 1 (too much Baldur's gate 3 lately).