G-give it Back T---T; !!

[AwesomeJr44]

Personally i liked Kaiten, it added a small amount of decision making to the rotation.

If they wanted to cull button bloat, all they had to do was combine Shota/Shota2 into a single target+cleave and it would have made the same difference in bloat that removing Kaiten did.

The current state of SAM players in savage is enough to show how low the skill ceiling for samurai is now, you can play like hot garbage and still do well, because the class no longer allows for meaningful decision making, and you just dump your job bar whenever you have it.

I don't disagree with most of this. The skill ceiling is too low, and the button bloat excuse given wasn't a good one. The only thing I disagree with here is that I don't think it was as interesting as people claim it was. I want SAM to be a more interesting job with a higher skill ceiling, but the cult-like behavior over Kaiten (a single button in a video game) is just cringe. Like I said, you don't see me doing this nonsense over Dark Arts or whatever.

They've made Kaiten their entire personality. It's really weird.

That's honestly the only part I find issue with. Even when they make decent points that I can agree with, the weird behavior just makes it cringe.

[AsiTsurugi]

+1 for Kaiten's rightful reinstatement.

[Aravell]

Honestly, I miss Seigan more than Kaiten. It makes me sad that not many care for Seigan. SAM at 5.55 was still the best iteration IMO.

[Soge01]

While i've gotten over the off feeling with Kaiten being gone, It'd would be good to have it back because Shinten spam is a pain in the arse at times. It would also be nice if Third Eye was more useful.

[Deo14]

Most of the people that were mad over its removal aren't even really that mad about Kaiten itself, they're mad that SAM's rotation has devolved into Shinten spam. Kaiten itself wasn't really a very interesting button, it just offered a different button to press than Shinten. So instead of reimplementing Kaiten, why not design a better ability that uses Kenki? That solves the actual issue at hand while also making SAM more interesting than either pre or post Kaiten removal.

... But at the same time, Kaiten wasn't an interesting button. You chained it with certain abilities in literally every case possible, making it essentially a combo action that you weaved. It should have gotten reworked to be more interesting or replaced by something else. It getting removed with no replacement is the only reason why its removal is a problem other than "I think it looked cool".

There were many discussions on this matter, but I have yet to see solid idea for a replacement. Problem is that it cannot be anything that would result in dps loss, so realistically, it would have to be higher damage than Shinten, while being locked by higher CD. But alas, that already exists, it's called Senei. Realistically, you could make something between Senei and Shinten, but you'll end up with 3 very similar skills, which sounds really uninteresting and bland. Kaiten simply fit perfectly into the Kenki management, it was made for it and was more interesting to use than just bland damage oGCD. That's job design reason, but satisfying animation and similar are also rightful reasons.

There's obviously more to this than just Kaiten, 6.1 had like 22 changes to SAM. Circle Tenka and guaranteed crits are also bad, but people just usually talk about Kaiten since it's biggest outlier. If you want to go more in depth, this whole topic has been discussed through and through in 100+ posts in DPS subforums already.

[CelestiCer]

...Kaiten simply fit perfectly into the Kenki management, it was made for it and was more interesting to use than just bland damage oGCD. That's job design reason, but satisfying animation and similar are also rightful reasons.

There's obviously more to this than just Kaiten, 6.1 had like 22 changes to SAM. Circle Tenka and guaranteed crits are also bad, but people just usually talk about Kaiten since it's biggest outlier. If you want to go more in depth, this whole topic has been discussed through and through in 100+ posts in DPS subforums already.

Indeed. I personally was not a fan of the following changes next to Kaiten removal...

• Tenka Goken turned into a Circle
• Senei/Guren cost decreased by half
• Seigan removal
• Senei introduced next to Guren
• Shoha II introduced next to Shoha II

The changes served to reward laziness for equal/more damage performance, making it no where near as satisfying to execute. " Kaiten removal" stood out due to gameplay going to Shinten Spamming yes, but also the Dev's lying about the reasons for its removal as the reasons they gave were... well to put it blunt... bulls**t. Kaiten removal is but a tiny detail of what SE has done... chipping away at every bit of complexity other Jobs had. An obsession to optimally streamline everything for the unreachable perfect balance at the cost of Job gameplay...

The player audience between w/e is casual and hardcore are seemingly being erased. Casual players will be served more Casual content, while hardcore raiders are more obsessed with fights/mechanics content, leaving less and less for what's in between as Square removes any ounce of skill-expression there is left from Jobs they continuously simplify. I believe SE can do way better then this, simply because they have in the past.

More buttons for the sake of more is equally as faulty as Less buttons for the sake of Less. Strike a balance, grant Job-execution some depth that doesn't raise the Skill-Floor to keep it player-friendly yet lift the Skill-ceiling as optional skill-expression to make mastering jobs feel rewarding... Remove something only when ready to replace it with something immediately instead of leaving an empty space for an excessive long period that fixed and improved absolutely nothing...

[DayHealer]

Samurai and Dark knight mains are just weebs.

Ok I said it, now you can downvote me. Wait this is not reddit..

[Aword3213]

Samurai and Dark knight mains are just weebs.

Ok I said it, now you can downvote me. Wait this is not reddit..

Then I'm a happy weeb

[CaptainLagbeard]

I don't really miss Kaiten... It was a button that more or less punished you when it doesn't activate despite you pressing it.


But if we're gonna talk about bringing stuff back, how about pre-6.3 PLD, their attempts to change the class to fit their obsession with burst windows nerfed it quite bad. and I'm pretty sure it does even less burst damage now than it did before...