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  1. #31
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    Ren once again you can’t just take your opinions as fact then argue with everyone who doesn’t share those opinions,
    Snow, you can't just state something that isn't happening is happening and then call someone out for it.

    I've stated what my opinions are on a subjective topic. The same subjective topic other people are stating their opinions on. "Is press-and-hold 'easily accessible'?" is a subjective question, not an objective one, as some people will find it easy and others not. You can't state YOUR position as fact, start with the assumption that YOUR opinion is the absolute right and I am always wrong, and argue with everyone who doesn't share your opinions.

    I know other people who use controller and none of them even knew about press and hold until I told them. None of them use it now. I tried using it with PLD back in SB but found it so unintuitive and annoying I actually just went to three hotbars and copied the first half of my first bar into my third and just manually RBumper scrolled through all three. It was EASIER than the press and hold thing. Every time someone insists to me that press and hold is easy, I'm genuinely shocked how anyone could think it is, since having tried it in live combat multiple times, it got me and others killed more often than manually scrolling. I've gotten to abilities faster and more reliably by pulling up my actions and traits menu and using them faster than by using the press and hold. It's that bad.

    So no, it's not great.

    I also didn't say "so I'm gonna ignore them". I said this is how _I_ am marking the line on where _I_ think is too much in a thread _I_ started.

    It's not "a complete false start of an argument". There's you, AGAIN, stating your opinion as fact to discredit an entire discussion because you don't want to have it/don't want it to be true/don't want to acknowledge people that DO have issues with the press-and-hold system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rithy255 View Post
    It baffles me how easy it would be...
    Pretty much agree with you on everything but Clemency/Cover/Shield Bash (I actually like those a lot, though I agree they could use some adjustments).

    I think FoF should just upgrade into Requiescat, and make Requiescat have range so it has the full functionality FoF does. I hadn't thought of Holy Circle being combined with Holy Spirit as a cleave target on an enemy, but that honestly makes a ton of sense. Goring should just be removed with its potency folded into Confetior or some of the sword attacks in the combo. Shelltron/Intervention could get the Heart of Corundum treatment. Just remove the CD, it's limited by Oath Gauge so you can't just sit there and machine gun it. You can only use up to two at a time, and it's not ridiculously overpowered in a game where Nascent can generate basically the same situation by effecting both a target and the WAR (the WAR doesn't get the mit but gets the healing, which is the lion's share of the functionality of the ability). This wouldn't really be OP, not to mention PLD already pays in lowest damage of the Tanks, so having higher defense/party utility is supposedly the exchange for that. Spirits Within/Expacion and Circle of Scorn are still kind of "why are these even here?" buttons. APM, I guess, but just give us more charges/faster recharge on Intervene (gap closer) so we can smack that more in burst.

    That's six hotbar spots right there. I kind of agree with you that it's annoying to have so many buttons that are "just use once every 1/2 mins or so", but it's even worse when its abilities that you always use together anyway. Abilities that, if the macro system didn't suck, you could just all macro to a single button because they literally don't do anything else (the only reason this doesn't work is because macros not quing; otherwise the buttons bring that little to the table).

    Shield Bash actually IS useful in solo content, Deep Dungeons, and Exploration Content. I think a better idea would be to give the button a context upgrade of some kind. For example, as I've pitched, if we DIDN'T remove Goring, have it be the Shield Bash button "context upgrades" to Goring Blade when you use Requiescat, like how RDM's Thunder/Aero/Jolt upgrade into Flare/Holy/Scorch/Resolution, or how Confetior changes to the three swords abilities one after another. Gets rid of Goring hogging a hotbar spot while keeping Shield Bash's general functionality (Goring can even have the Stun, doesn't hurt anything since bosses are immune to it anyways).

    Cover is a really useful ability for saving runs or pushing prog, the issue is the gauge cost. There's no reason for it when it already has its CD. Just remove the gauge cost and Cover would be a useful ability again.

    Clemency is honestly pretty good where it's at, and the one Tank healing button I think IS in a good place. Yes, it's powerful, but a total DPS loss to use and will make you go MP negative really fast. It's useful for pushing prog or trying to salvage fights, but isn't outright replacing Healers (PLD doing its damage rotation and letting the Healer heal is always going to be a party DPS gain in stuff like 4 mans over the PLD trying to be the healer and letting the WHM Glare more). That trade-off is what makes it good and makes things like Nascent or Shake bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deo14 View Post
    Wouldn't it make more sense to ask for better accessibility options, instead of doing major overhauls of most, if not all jobs?
    I didn't ask for overhauls of most or all Jobs.

    I noted that about a third are currently below the 32 threshold as it is.

    The OP was more countering the argument that Healers have the least buttons (WHM specifically), since that isn't at all true. You ask me why 32 but...then say you know the answer, so...? I don't need to answer it, then?

    For my part - as I say all the time with "4 Healer Model" and "new SMN is fine but old SMN should exist as a separate Job" and so on - I like there being different levels of things across the Jobs so we have the highest odds of someone finding at least one they like. Ideally at least one in each role, but just at least one.

    Right now, we have a decent spread. 27 for SMN on the low end and 37 for PLD on the high end. I do feel like some of the Jobs (PLD is a particular sore spot) have a lot of buttons that probably should be pruned because they don't bring anything to the Job. On the other hand, as I've also said before, we have Jobs like SCH where most of their buttons actually have a use justifying them existing as a distinct ability and hotbar slot.

    I think it's good we have some with a lot, but also good we have some with a little. I do feel some of the ones with a lot should be looked at to see if all those buttons ARE bringing something to the table or not, though. But if they are, I'm not advocating they be changed "just because", or changed at all.
    (0)
    Last edited by Renathras; 08-11-2023 at 11:37 AM. Reason: EDIT for length

  2. #32
    Player
    Deo14's Avatar
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    Jul 2022
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    504
    Character
    Thea Shinri
    World
    Raiden
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    I noted that about a third are currently below the 32 threshold as it is.

    The OP was more countering the argument that Healers have the least buttons (WHM specifically), since that isn't at all true. You ask me why 32 but...then say you know the answer, so...? I don't need to answer it, then?

    For my part - as I say all the time with "4 Healer Model" and "new SMN is fine but old SMN should exist as a separate Job" and so on - I like there being different levels of things across the Jobs so we have the highest odds of someone finding at least one they like. Ideally at least one in each role, but just at least one.

    Right now, we have a decent spread. 27 for SMN on the low end and 37 for PLD on the high end. I do feel like some of the Jobs (PLD is a particular sore spot) have a lot of buttons that probably should be pruned because they don't bring anything to the Job. On the other hand, as I've also said before, we have Jobs like SCH where most of their buttons actually have a use justifying them existing as a distinct ability and hotbar slot.

    I think it's good we have some with a lot, but also good we have some with a little. I do feel some of the ones with a lot should be looked at to see if all those buttons ARE bringing something to the table or not, though. But if they are, I'm not advocating they be changed "just because", or changed at all.
    I thought the argument was that not everyone is comfortable with the way controllers handle that 48 button layout. Was it just a side/off-topic comment? It sounded like you wanted to remove bloat in order to fit into the 32 quota, but since you clarified that is not the case I don't understand the point of that argument, because some jobs will fit into this quota if you remove real bloat, but some won't, so this wouldn't solve it, people who don't want to use 48 button layout will be effectively locked out from the jobs that are over this limit. Or even worse, they'll still play these jobs, but not with all skills. Which is why you saying that only real bloat should be looked at, and that 48 button layout is too much for some seems conflicting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    I think it's good we have some with a lot, but also good we have some with a little. I do feel some of the ones with a lot should be looked at to see if all those buttons ARE bringing something to the table or not, though.
    All jobs should be checked for button bloat, even SMN. Because even though SMN has least amount of buttons, he still somehow has button bloat. One of them is Physick, which is imo in current game the bloatiest of all the bloats. Maybe, just maybe, if SE sees how empty SMN's hotbars are, they might rethink it and add something more to the job, because it looks like they ran out of time when they were reworking it and had to release it unfinished. It really feels like Fester should be connected to something or do more than just be a 2 stacks of oGCD every minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    You ask me why 32 but...then say you know the answer, so...? I don't need to answer it, then?
    I specified it was rhetorical, I used your opinion alongside other 2 examples to point out different ideas of ideal buttons by different people, to showcase how disputable that number can be depending on who you ask.
    (5)

  3. #33
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Ren Thras
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    Famfrit
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    White Mage Lv 100
    Honestly, I think the bigger point of discussion is how those buttons are used.

    MNK is one of the highest skill ceiling Jobs in the game (probably on par with BLM - some of the hyper optimization stuff for MNK is ridiculous), yet at 31 buttons has both less than my preferred 32 AND has the least of all the Melee Jobs AND is 3rd least in the game, only behind MCH and SMN. It probably also has the most involved "filler" in the game since its rotation is in a 2:2:3 resonance and even that is disrupted when you use Perfect Balance to get your two Nadis. It still has a complex burst besides this, so it's not "complex filler and empty burst", has several oGCDs to weave in said burst, and has the fastest GCD in the game making it even more busy.

    I think looking at how many buttons/hotbar spots a Job takes up IS useful since it gives us a good start in knowing what MIGHT have more than it needs, but not all Jobs need the same, not all Jobs need few, and Jobs can have few buttons while also having high complexity at the same time. What's important is how the buttons are used, if they all have a use, etc.

    Even on MNK, Riddle of Air and Fire could be combined (Air is literally just white auto-attack damage increase), so even there, there's room for trimming fat. But MNK also shows a Job doesn't need over 30 buttons to be a complex and interesting Job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deo14 View Post
    I thought the argument was that not everyone is comfortable with the way controllers handle that 48 button layout. Was it just a side/off-topic comment?
    Yes, it was a side topic. I use 32 as a marker, but as I noted originally (wrongly, as it turns out), 30 could also be used. We could also use 24. As the MNK example shows, a high number does not necessarily equate to a high complexity or skill, so there's no magic "X number needed to be good". How much is too much will be subjective, though. I only use 32 specifically because there is a reasonable argument to be made for (some) controller players and that in general, 30 IS a lot of buttons. However, this thread wasn't to suggest that there IS a cap nothing should be above (as I said and always do; I prefer an all of the above situation where we have a spread and let people gravitate to what they like best), but rather to counter the idea that Healers have few of them relative to other Jobs. The lowest healers (WHM and SGE) are right about the average overall (~33), and AST and SCH are on the top end.

    .

    As to what "seems conflicting": Because as I say, not everyone plays everything. Just as with the difficulty and "4 Healers Model" discussions, I believe a spread is good and people can gravitate to whichever suites them best. Of all the things I say here, is this not a thing I'm consistent with to and beyond a fault?

    So the reason it's not a conflict is that I believe having a spread is good. I DO believe it's worth looking at different amounts to verify they're all useful, however.

    .

    Physic isn't a problem itself, it's like Shield Bash where the use case is too narrow. They should give it the Vercure treatment. It's now a distinct ability from the SCH one, so there's legitimately no reason for it to be linked to MND. That said, it's actually useful for players level 50 and below, which includes PotD. Honestly, Energy Drain/Siphon/Fester/Painflare are the first place I'd point to for SMN button bloat. They could just make Siphon and Painflare do the Drain/Fester damage to their first target and then have their falloff damage. There's genuinely no reason for them to be separate buttons, and Energy Drain, Energy Siphon, and Fester don't even fit SMN's aesthetic anyway. As I said elsewhere, they could just have Baha/Phoenix give you your Ruin 4 charge for the minute and remove the rest and nothing of value would be lost, OR remove all but Painflare, make it do the same damage to the first target as (ED + Fester + Fester) / 3, give it a 20 sec CD and 3 charge stack. Amusingly, this would probably actually increase SMN's skill ceiling slightly (reward pooling and burst spending rather than using on CD), but it's such a marginal difference it would more be a side-grade anyway.

    SMN and RDM are probably the two best Jobs in the game in terms of hotbar economy. That's not a negative. SMN is pretty good and feels finished to me. Subjective thing is subjective, though.
    (1)
    Last edited by Renathras; 08-11-2023 at 12:20 PM. Reason: EDIT for length

  4. #34
    Player
    fulminating's Avatar
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    Wind-up Everyone
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    Zodiark
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    Arcanist Lv 52
    If by hyper optimisation you’re referring to gcd based frame rate locking, role distance from you and whatever else was in the 5.3 game’s haunted monk guide then it’s more silliness than practicality.
    (0)

  5. #35
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by fulminating View Post
    If by hyper optimisation you’re referring to gcd based frame rate locking, role distance from you and whatever else was in the 5.3 game’s haunted monk guide then it’s more silliness than practicality.
    Given the present tense in that sentence... wouldn't one normally just assume that's referring to ("Optimal Drift") Monk in Endwalker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Yes, it was a side topic. I use 32 as a marker, but as I noted originally (wrongly, as it turns out), 30 could also be used. We could also use 24. As the MNK example shows, a high number does not necessarily equate to a high complexity or skill, so there's no magic "X number needed to be good". How much is too much will be subjective, though. I only use 32 specifically because there is a reasonable argument to be made for (some) controller players and that in general, 30 IS a lot of buttons.
    For me, it's just because of the number of intercepting common multiples at 32 (the next being 36). And, yeah, 32 is generally quite a few buttons... if our buttons were actually densely versatile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras
    Physic isn't a problem itself, it's like Shield Bash where the use case is too narrow. They should give it the Vercure treatment. It's now a distinct ability from the SCH one, so there's legitimately no reason for it to be linked to MND.
    Agreed. So long as SMN is to share roots with SCH, it makes no sense to deny it use of Physick by pruning it from an upgrade to said roots, nor does it make sense to continue to effectively deny SMN use of Physick after level 41 by leaving it tied solely to MND.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras
    2:2:3 resonance
    Mostly, but it's actually because it's not perfectly in ratio that Perfect Balance, even pre-Blitz / in itself, leaves room for optimization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras
    Even on MNK, Riddle of Air and Fire could be combined (Air is literally just white auto-attack damage increase)
    Ultimately, that just comes down to 1 thing above all: Do at least half of Monks enjoy having an off-rhythm button to press that slightly separates (default) full burst from mini-burst windows without relying just on raid-buffs to do so?

    Because they're not the same CDs. Pretty uniquely (Bloodfest and Salted Earth are the only others filling that function) and, if that relative uniqueness is any indicator, intentionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras
    SMN is pretty good and feels finished to me.
    ...Annnd you lost me.

    :: I'll agree that SMN is unnecessarily button-bloated given that few of its available 'levers' are ever given use cases, but consolidating it further seems a far worse path to take than giving it additional available decisions by adding some available nuance to those currently barebone actions / unnecessary buttons.
    (5)

  6. #36
    Player
    fulminating's Avatar
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    Wind-up Everyone
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    Zodiark
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    Arcanist Lv 52
    As far as I'm aware the gcd-frame rate interaction still exists, and buff rippling/travel time definitely does. (Solve (GCD x mod 1)=0 then add 1 to a multiple of whatever that comes up with for a noticeable but still marginal improvement over taking 1 away; eg 61 vs 59 fps at 1.95. I’m not sure optimal drift counts as hyper optimisation.

    As I'm commenting again, I'll just mention in passing that I'm mildly horrified anyone is using the word good in the same sentence as current summoner.
    (7)
    Last edited by fulminating; 08-11-2023 at 04:27 PM.

  7. #37
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    :: I'll agree that SMN is unnecessarily button-bloated given that few of its available 'levers' are ever given use cases, but consolidating it further seems a far worse path to take than giving it additional available decisions by adding some available nuance to those currently barebone actions / unnecessary buttons.
    Well, that's why I generally don't propose it. It already has little enough to work with. That was more pointing out that even in that case, there's some bloat/excess that doesn't fit the Job thematically and doesn't really alter much.

    Quote Originally Posted by fulminating View Post
    As I'm commenting again, I'll just mention in passing that I'm mildly horrified anyone is using the word good in the same sentence as current summoner.
    Subjective things are subjective, I guess..?
    (0)

  8. #38
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
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    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
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    White Mage Lv 100
    A quick note, considering people talk about how things "used to be" as better. In ARR:

    CNJ:

    Stone
    Cure
    Aero
    Cleric Stance
    Protect
    Medica
    Raise
    Fluid Aura
    Esuna
    Stone II
    Repose
    Cure II
    Stoneskin
    Shroud of Saints
    Cure III
    Aero II
    Medica II

    Total:17

    WHM:

    Presence of Mind
    Regen
    Divine Seal
    Holy
    Benediction

    Total: 5

    Cross-Class: 5

    Grand Total: 27

    NOTE: Classes could slot 10 Cross-Class actions, Jobs could only slot 5 but also got their 5 Job actions for the same total; that is, a CNJ slotting 10 Cross-Class actions would also have a total of 27 because they’d be losing out on the 5 WHM actions in exchange.

    .

    That is, in ARR, WHM had as many Hotbar abilities taken as SMN does today. And some of those (particularly Repose and Stone 1, arguably [in some content] Cure 1, and OFTEN Fluid Aura in fights where the Knockback was undesired) weren't even 100% required for a spot, though you would need to slot them when doing lower level synced content in the case of Stone 1 and Cure 1.

    .

    Oh, forgot to add Sprint, LB, and Potion. So that brings us up to 30 buttons, even. With 2 to spare (so you might also carry an Ether and have an extra slot for Mount so you could leave that on your hotbar instead of having to swap it with Potion all the time), too.
    (0)
    Last edited by Renathras; 08-27-2023 at 02:38 AM. Reason: Marked with EDIT

  9. #39
    Player
    NobleWinter's Avatar
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    Gridania
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    Character
    Winter Gem
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    WHM had Stoneskin 2 in ARR as well. I fondly remember using Swiftcast to apply shields to the entire party between dungeon pulls. It wasn't super useful but it was more fun than not being able to do it now.
    (2)
    Last edited by NobleWinter; 08-27-2023 at 07:26 PM.

  10. #40
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
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    Gridania
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    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Stoneskin 2 was a patchwork fix to the fact that every time you wiped you couldn’t pull till the WHM stood there and cast Stoneskin on every party member individually

    There was also Stoneskin 2 in legacy that got removed in 1.2 after they just bestowed Stoneskin 2’s effect to Stoneskin 1

    So essentially Stoneskin 1 in legacy was a 6% damage reduction to everyone and Stoneskin 2 was 12%, then they made Stoneskin 1 12% in 1.2 and deleted Stoneskin 2, then in 2.0 Stoneskin 1 was changed to only affect a single party member for 12% and because that got backlash due to prepull they re-added Stoneskin 2 which was AOE Stoneskin 1 (or the original version of Stoneskin 1 from post 1.2 or original Stoneskin 2 from pre 1.2)
    (3)

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