Button Bloat: Data for discussion

[Deo14]

I noted that about a third are currently below the 32 threshold as it is.

The OP was more countering the argument that Healers have the least buttons (WHM specifically), since that isn't at all true. You ask me why 32 but...then say you know the answer, so...? I don't need to answer it, then?

For my part - as I say all the time with "4 Healer Model" and "new SMN is fine but old SMN should exist as a separate Job" and so on - I like there being different levels of things across the Jobs so we have the highest odds of someone finding at least one they like. Ideally at least one in each role, but just at least one.

Right now, we have a decent spread. 27 for SMN on the low end and 37 for PLD on the high end. I do feel like some of the Jobs (PLD is a particular sore spot) have a lot of buttons that probably should be pruned because they don't bring anything to the Job. On the other hand, as I've also said before, we have Jobs like SCH where most of their buttons actually have a use justifying them existing as a distinct ability and hotbar slot.

I think it's good we have some with a lot, but also good we have some with a little. I do feel some of the ones with a lot should be looked at to see if all those buttons ARE bringing something to the table or not, though. But if they are, I'm not advocating they be changed "just because", or changed at all.

I thought the argument was that not everyone is comfortable with the way controllers handle that 48 button layout. Was it just a side/off-topic comment? It sounded like you wanted to remove bloat in order to fit into the 32 quota, but since you clarified that is not the case I don't understand the point of that argument, because some jobs will fit into this quota if you remove real bloat, but some won't, so this wouldn't solve it, people who don't want to use 48 button layout will be effectively locked out from the jobs that are over this limit. Or even worse, they'll still play these jobs, but not with all skills. Which is why you saying that only real bloat should be looked at, and that 48 button layout is too much for some seems conflicting.

I think it's good we have some with a lot, but also good we have some with a little. I do feel some of the ones with a lot should be looked at to see if all those buttons ARE bringing something to the table or not, though.

All jobs should be checked for button bloat, even SMN. Because even though SMN has least amount of buttons, he still somehow has button bloat. One of them is Physick, which is imo in current game the bloatiest of all the bloats. Maybe, just maybe, if SE sees how empty SMN's hotbars are, they might rethink it and add something more to the job, because it looks like they ran out of time when they were reworking it and had to release it unfinished. It really feels like Fester should be connected to something or do more than just be a 2 stacks of oGCD every minute.

You ask me why 32 but...then say you know the answer, so...? I don't need to answer it, then?

I specified it was rhetorical, I used your opinion alongside other 2 examples to point out different ideas of ideal buttons by different people, to showcase how disputable that number can be depending on who you ask.

[Renathras]

Honestly, I think the bigger point of discussion is how those buttons are used.

MNK is one of the highest skill ceiling Jobs in the game (probably on par with BLM - some of the hyper optimization stuff for MNK is ridiculous), yet at 31 buttons has both less than my preferred 32 AND has the least of all the Melee Jobs AND is 3rd least in the game, only behind MCH and SMN. It probably also has the most involved "filler" in the game since its rotation is in a 2:2:3 resonance and even that is disrupted when you use Perfect Balance to get your two Nadis. It still has a complex burst besides this, so it's not "complex filler and empty burst", has several oGCDs to weave in said burst, and has the fastest GCD in the game making it even more busy.

I think looking at how many buttons/hotbar spots a Job takes up IS useful since it gives us a good start in knowing what MIGHT have more than it needs, but not all Jobs need the same, not all Jobs need few, and Jobs can have few buttons while also having high complexity at the same time. What's important is how the buttons are used, if they all have a use, etc.

Even on MNK, Riddle of Air and Fire could be combined (Air is literally just white auto-attack damage increase), so even there, there's room for trimming fat. But MNK also shows a Job doesn't need over 30 buttons to be a complex and interesting Job.

I thought the argument was that not everyone is comfortable with the way controllers handle that 48 button layout. Was it just a side/off-topic comment?

Yes, it was a side topic. I use 32 as a marker, but as I noted originally (wrongly, as it turns out), 30 could also be used. We could also use 24. As the MNK example shows, a high number does not necessarily equate to a high complexity or skill, so there's no magic "X number needed to be good". How much is too much will be subjective, though. I only use 32 specifically because there is a reasonable argument to be made for (some) controller players and that in general, 30 IS a lot of buttons. However, this thread wasn't to suggest that there IS a cap nothing should be above (as I said and always do; I prefer an all of the above situation where we have a spread and let people gravitate to what they like best), but rather to counter the idea that Healers have few of them relative to other Jobs. The lowest healers (WHM and SGE) are right about the average overall (~33), and AST and SCH are on the top end.

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As to what "seems conflicting": Because as I say, not everyone plays everything. Just as with the difficulty and "4 Healers Model" discussions, I believe a spread is good and people can gravitate to whichever suites them best. Of all the things I say here, is this not a thing I'm consistent with to and beyond a fault?

So the reason it's not a conflict is that I believe having a spread is good. I DO believe it's worth looking at different amounts to verify they're all useful, however.

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Physic isn't a problem itself, it's like Shield Bash where the use case is too narrow. They should give it the Vercure treatment. It's now a distinct ability from the SCH one, so there's legitimately no reason for it to be linked to MND. That said, it's actually useful for players level 50 and below, which includes PotD. Honestly, Energy Drain/Siphon/Fester/Painflare are the first place I'd point to for SMN button bloat. They could just make Siphon and Painflare do the Drain/Fester damage to their first target and then have their falloff damage. There's genuinely no reason for them to be separate buttons, and Energy Drain, Energy Siphon, and Fester don't even fit SMN's aesthetic anyway. As I said elsewhere, they could just have Baha/Phoenix give you your Ruin 4 charge for the minute and remove the rest and nothing of value would be lost, OR remove all but Painflare, make it do the same damage to the first target as (ED + Fester + Fester) / 3, give it a 20 sec CD and 3 charge stack. Amusingly, this would probably actually increase SMN's skill ceiling slightly (reward pooling and burst spending rather than using on CD), but it's such a marginal difference it would more be a side-grade anyway.

SMN and RDM are probably the two best Jobs in the game in terms of hotbar economy. That's not a negative. SMN is pretty good and feels finished to me. Subjective thing is subjective, though.

[Shurrikhan]

If by hyper optimisation you’re referring to gcd based frame rate locking, role distance from you and whatever else was in the 5.3 game’s haunted monk guide then it’s more silliness than practicality.

Given the present tense in that sentence... wouldn't one normally just assume that's referring to ("Optimal Drift") Monk in Endwalker?

Yes, it was a side topic. I use 32 as a marker, but as I noted originally (wrongly, as it turns out), 30 could also be used. We could also use 24. As the MNK example shows, a high number does not necessarily equate to a high complexity or skill, so there's no magic "X number needed to be good". How much is too much will be subjective, though. I only use 32 specifically because there is a reasonable argument to be made for (some) controller players and that in general, 30 IS a lot of buttons.

For me, it's just because of the number of intercepting common multiples at 32 (the next being 36). And, yeah, 32 is generally quite a few buttons... if our buttons were actually densely versatile.

Physic isn't a problem itself, it's like Shield Bash where the use case is too narrow. They should give it the Vercure treatment. It's now a distinct ability from the SCH one, so there's legitimately no reason for it to be linked to MND.

Agreed. So long as SMN is to share roots with SCH, it makes no sense to deny it use of Physick by pruning it from an upgrade to said roots, nor does it make sense to continue to effectively deny SMN use of Physick after level 41 by leaving it tied solely to MND.

2:2:3 resonance

Mostly, but it's actually because it's not perfectly in ratio that Perfect Balance, even pre-Blitz / in itself, leaves room for optimization.

Even on MNK, Riddle of Air and Fire could be combined (Air is literally just white auto-attack damage increase)

Ultimately, that just comes down to 1 thing above all: Do at least half of Monks enjoy having an off-rhythm button to press that slightly separates (default) full burst from mini-burst windows without relying just on raid-buffs to do so?

Because they're not the same CDs. Pretty uniquely (Bloodfest and Salted Earth are the only others filling that function) and, if that relative uniqueness is any indicator, intentionally.

SMN is pretty good and feels finished to me.

...Annnd you lost me.

:: I'll agree that SMN is unnecessarily button-bloated given that few of its available 'levers' are ever given use cases, but consolidating it further seems a far worse path to take than giving it additional available decisions by adding some available nuance to those currently barebone actions / unnecessary buttons.