Button Bloat: Data for discussion

[ForsakenRoe]

For the second, well, we probably ought to be looking at which buttons provide very little increase in available complexity relative to their button cost ("I press this button for Ikishoten, but I press this button for Namikiri! ...Nevermind that the latter can only even be used after Ikishoten...").

Soft-scrolling is definitely a place where some "micro-AI" or "smart-targeting" could do a ton of good, as could other tangential improvements like being able to simultaneously hold a Hostile Target and a Friendly Target, removing the inability for macros to queue and allowing them additional targeting settings (such as @st or @soft-target), etc.

Examples of "smart-targeting" (or, smart-snapping") might be something like an option to have, when you Draw a Melee Card, your soft-target snap to the last Melee DPS or Tank that you buffed with a Card (perhaps even with a set priority order for the snap that you could set in the macro [rehauled slightly for greater accessibility]). Other potential improvements could be something like the option to have, once you hit Play, your UI highlight via Soft Target indicators all Priority and Other applicable recipients, and you just nudge your stick to the angle and (relative) depth of the viable target you want to affect with Play.

So my solution for SAM would be this: You're at 0 Kenki, you use Iki, you're at 50, you Senei or Guren and you're at 25. So, the overall 'gain' from this is that you dealt big damage, and gained 25 Kenki. So rather than having a cost of 25, just delete Iki, and make Senei and Guren generate 25, and provide Namikiri Ready. If Iki sucks that much, I'd rather we just deleted it so we don't have it as a weave we still have to do, even if it does turn into Namikiri on the bars. Plus, it turning into Namikiri would have the same potential issue as Jump>Mirage Dive had, and that got rolled back pretty fast

For targetting, here's an idea, though I've not thought it through much: when you press Play, you get a small radial ring somewhere (maybe on the job gauge), with each of the 8 cardinal/intercardinal directions mapped to a party member. Press Right Stick in that direction to instantly throw the card on that party member. Like the Monster Hunter quick-item wheel. By making it so you can press Play during the Malefic cast to bring this wheel up, then selecting a target while still in the cast time, you'd effectively 'queue' up the card to be used at the end of the cast time, akin to how we can 'buffer' an OGCD now.

something like this:



And yes, it would be rescalable in size. And yes, it could be used on other jobs for things like Dragon Sight targetting, or other healer skills like Fey Union or Taurochole or whatever

(ideal situation would be returning onslaught, upheaval and wide upheaval to the beast gauge, removing shared cooldown and reducing onslaught back to 10s, also unstacking the inner release thing so it doesn't feel as bad in general and especially stq areas.

Wide Upheaval (I assume you mean Orogeny) should have been 'slam foot down so hard that lava erupts around you', and Upheaval should get a trait to upgrade it's damage, which changes the animation from uppercutting the enemy, to grabbing them with one hand and headbutting them really hard

[Shurrikhan]

So my solution for SAM would be this: You're at 0 Kenki, you use Iki, you're at 50, you Senei or Guren and you're at 25. So, the overall 'gain' from this is that you dealt big damage, and gained 25 Kenki. So rather than having a cost of 25, just delete Iki, and make Senei and Guren generate 25, and provide Namikiri Ready. If Iki sucks that much, I'd rather we just deleted it so we don't have it as a weave we still have to do, even if it does turn into Namikiri on the bars. Plus, it turning into Namikiri would have the same potential issue as Jump>Mirage Dive had, and that got rolled back pretty fast.

Iki doesn't, imo, suck. It just sucks that...

• Namikiri needlessly takes a separate button,
• its CD was doubled to 120s, making it add little to gauge management so much as just one more step in a bloated 15s per 120s burst, and
• Senei/Guren were also moved from per 90s (off-rhythm with Iki) to 120s, defeating the point of Iki's former contribution to gauge management.

The solution? To just revert it, and separate Namikiri. The obvious, though imo inferior alternative: to just have Ikishoten turn into Namikiri after use, since EVERY Iki opens up Namikiri and Namikiri can ONLY be used after Iki.

I'm fine with Namikiri being a separate button... if it has reason to be a separate button. It just currently has no such reason.

For targetting, here's an idea, though I've not thought it through much: when you press Play, you get a small radial ring somewhere (maybe on the job gauge), with each of the 8 cardinal/intercardinal directions mapped to a party member.

Would love this option. Just set it to [@cardi] on the macro, and, again, remove the intentional sabotage of at least the first actionable line of each macro, and allow players to set up targeting schemas to act on all [relevant] skills without needing a macro (a trickle-down of targeting procedures, skipping over those not applicable, that can be set by skill type).

changes the animation from uppercutting the enemy, to grabbing them with one hand and headbutting them really hard

But then players might remember that the game has basically zero physics.

[Renathras]

...

- You can press X to doubt, but I've had it happen a handful of times that I got a Cure 1 off and it landed JUST before/as the damage was hitting, saving the target. It's niche, but useful. It's why I prefer Cure 1 -> Esuna ideas since it still retains that (and the MP economy) functionality.

- ...though more for SCH. Physic and Adlo just don't work well as an upgrade path. Your proposal is how I used to think to do it, but then you run into the problem: Does it cost 500 MP or 1000 MP? Cure 2 and Benefic 2 are just straight upgrades to Cure 1 and Benefic 1 in everything but MP cost and cast time (for Cure), but SCH has something else going on. The total healing + Shield of Adlo is pretty considerable, and well more than the 800 potency of healing from WHM. If anything (since shields are more valuable than healing in pretty much all cases other than beating a Doom healing check, and you have Emergency Tactics for that), Adlo's total should be lower than Cure 2's. Right now, it's a smidge higher (800 vs 840), but making it this wayy would be 800 vs 990, which is a pretty considerable difference. It's why Physic -> Leeches makes even more sense.

- Which spells did I say combine? Sorry, was supposed to be Whispering Dawn + Fey Blessing, like my SCH write-up thread. Specifically for that reason; they currently do have a CD of both being 1 min.

Because there is also the extra easily accessible set by holding L+R or R+L giving 16 more,

I literally brought this up... You can say "you can't just ignore them", but they aren't easily accessible. Press and hold commands don't work for everyone, and don't work as well as tapping a bumper or holding a shift button on keyboard. I already mentioned this. You liking it is fine, not everyone does. Quite a few people don't play with that system, because they don't find it "extra easily accessible". I don't.

It also doesn't counter the point that 30 buttons is already a lot of buttons. What argument can you give that an MMO class must have at least 40 buttons or it isn't challenging/interesting/fun?

My post comes off a bit contradictory because I was adding a bit of nuance to the discussion. Supersnow is right in that there are 48 easily accessed buttons

They aren't "easily accessed", though.

.

I feel like this is the point where we collectively have to realize "subjectivity". We don't have a clear and agreed on definition for "easily", clearly. To me, easily on keyboard is either one button (1 to +) or holding down a modifier and pressing those buttons (Shift/ALT/CTRL + 1 to +). That gives a total of 4 bar sets that are pretty easy to access. For controller, it's holding down one trigger and pressing a button, with the allowance of a quick bumper tap before doing so. Those are "easily accessible".

If you think other things are easily accessible...good for you. I'm genuinely happy for you.

...but that isn't a universal position, hence why I don't use it for discussions.

...and Upheaval should get a trait to upgrade it's damage, which changes the animation from uppercutting the enemy, to grabbing them with one hand and headbutting them really hard

"You can't suplex the Ghost Train but you CAN pick it up off the ground and headbutt it!"

[ForsakenRoe]

Physic and Adlo just don't work well as an upgrade path. Your proposal is how I used to think to do it, but then you run into the problem: Does it cost 500 MP or 1000 MP?

500-600 to make it more comparable to the revamped Cure2's cost. Also, Regen is 1200p and costs 400. The shield is quite comparable to Cure2, only being 'out of control strong' when it crits. Cure2 can be spammed, Adlo loses effectiveness if the shield isnt broken by the time the next cast is finished. Also, having Adlo at say 600, makes it more incentive for newer players to think 'I could Succor this, orrr... I could Adlo>Deploy, for a stronger shield AND it's MP cheaper!', helping to build a good habit earlier on. As nice as Physick>Leeches might sound, it doesn't mean we'll use Physick-Leeches any more often, so it's still going to be a pretty dead button on the bar

I'm personally not super opposed to Blessing/Dawn getting combined, but... I can see it causing a lot of overheal issues, potentially. That, and I'd rather they made Blessing an AOE gauge spender or something, instead of 'Remote Deploy Indom'