Fishing, Its time to bring it in line with the other gathering jobs!!

[fulminating]

Honestly a lot of the fishing enthusiasts I’ve met in game have also been high end raiders. I think it appeals to a similar mindset in some ways, but solo. There’s similar catharsis to clearing, but it wasn’t the astrologian spilling cards everywhere and forgetting to heal or the dps accidentally joining ixions while phoenix is being made it was all on you or the fish/game.

[Sir_Tonberry]

Big words from someone who has the title but mysteriously no record for even savage.

So sorry I didn't document clearing DPS and TOP and Sastasha on all my characters for your viewing pleasure. I'll get right on that for you. In any case, your fixating on cheating in ultimate right off the rip in a conversation of bad game design instead of discussing whither or not fishing is a flawed system, running to fflogs for a failed gotcha/witch hunt ain't it. I can get carried by my static on 100 alt characters and your point will never be valid. Come with actual facts to support your opinion on fishing like kauhz and we can have a conversation.

[fulminating]

I genuinely don’t believe you. Just look at how many bug fixes top has had, the shield kill in p2s, the bad tuning of damage vs timeline vs job output. Not to mention how trivial it is to get above 50 with remotely current gear on any job in normal. You don’t need pots, you don’t need food, just hit the boss and get purple or higher. There was also no mention of cheating.

You also completely ignored posts earlier in the thread explaining how fishing isn’t just rng to make your ill-informed argument so why retread ground you’ve already presumably seen?

[Kaurhz]

discussing whither or not fishing is a flawed system

On this note, IMO I wouldn't say it's a flawed system if you still think it has elements to it that can help determine success - If you pit 2 people on a fishing hole - 1, and 1 has absolutely no experience whatsoever, and no understanding of the core mechanics with fishing, against someone that has even an intermediary knowledge of fishing - The person with that knowledge in the vast majority of cases will yield more success. - Sure, someone may come around, and catch the fish a lot easier, but they will equally have many other fish that become the bane of their existence. Some people may have also been trying a lot longer, e.g., if someone comes along and simply catches Ealad Skaan in a few tugs, there is no way of telling whether this player has been trying for several months already or not.

It just comes down to who you think the target audience is or isn't as to whether it is flawed, this is why you need to understand why people do fishing in the first place. Is a solo deep dungeon for everyone, absolutely not, but those core mechanics with PotD is what draws the intrigue for many people. Fishing is really no different, and with some fish, there is an amount of satisfaction you get that is still difficult to replicate in many facets of the game when you catch certain fish.

Many people want to try Big Fishing and it isn't for everyone. - Many people want to try solo running deep dungeons, and it isn't for everyone. - Many people want to try raiding be it savage or ultimate's, and it isn't for everyone. It shouldn't be about making it for everyone, this is the reason we have so many complaints about certain facets of the game because they have eliminated everything which draws that initial intrigue all under the crusade of having it appeal to everyone. Fishing is genuinely one of the fewer activities in the game that are timeless. In that no amount of gear will solve all of the issues, there are still hurdles to overcome. - I do know quite a few people that have tried big fishing just recently because of the Adventurer Plate template locked behind it. Historically it has been almost exclusively for the title, achievements (and these people are insane regardless) or just self-satisfaction

Ultimately, everyone is on the same baseline with the fish some people are lucky, and some people are not - It's the same with loot, mount farming, minion farming, reaching high floors in treasure maps, and IMO to a degree if big fishing were as simple as getting gear, and winning with a 100% success rate on the tug, then that could easily come under bad design, depending who you see as the target audience.

I don't think fishing itself is a flawed design. I would, however, go on record to say that there are some fish that are abysmally designed in their conditions, e.g., Cinder Surprise, Bobgoblin Bass, and Ealad Skaan to name a few. - In that, some of these fish can have downtime which extends beyond a week before it can be next caught, and then on top of this you have the question of whether the fish aligns with your schedule, e.g., are you at work? Are you on other matters? - I've met people that make it so their schedule fits around these fish, e.g., doing a Work from Home, skipping raid. - This is why to a degree I will always get a bit of comedy from people that say it's flawed etc., just because they've spent a couple of hours trying to catch a fish that has a 40%+ window rate.

[Tint]

The thing is that only 6 fish per expansion plus one fish per ocean fishing spot are actually overtuned. And while I agree that they are a bit too difficult to catch - we don't have to rework the whole Fisher class because of these few fish. Normal big fish are fine.

Spear fishing is accessible for casual players and is the part of fishing which should be more involved with crafting (we have the Aethersands, but it's not much).

----

I think these legendary big fish should be excluded from the big fish achievments and get their own achievments and titles, like it was in ARR and how it works for the rare ocean fishing fish. And they also should change the color of the icons from green to blue, so they fall in line with the rare ocean fishing fish and get a visual distinction from normal big fish.

Then we have tiers for fishing like we have for raiding. Some people do savage raids but not ultimate and in the same way people can catch the normal big fish but not the legendary ones and still get a reward and a sense of completion.

[Sir_Tonberry]

I feel like you're making some points that are fair and I agree with and others that I don't. So firstly
1) Yes the person who knows more about fishing has the higher chance catch the fish by virtue of knowing what their buttons do and how to interact with the mechanics of bait, hooks tugs, and so on. That is understandable.
2) If you want to compare fishing's difficulty to a deep dungeon then the appropriate comparison would be having a percentage chance of spawning into a floor with no exit or no possible way to progress on that attempt. How many people would just accept reaching somewhere in the last 10 floors and just losing because the game unilaterally decided that you lost with no opportunity for counterplay?
"Ultimately, everyone is on the same baseline.... some people are lucky, and some people are not" is not a good enough reason for a player to fail in most situations imo.
3) I have no problem with long IRL windows between fish spawns. It's not ideal but if the conditions can be graphed, plotted and worked around then that is acceptable. Inconvenient or tedious does not necessarily mean flawed. A flawed system would be one where the player enters into a failure state (in this case not getting the fish) without knowing that they're in a failure state, not knowing what (if anything) went wrong and what if anything they can do differently to change it. If you came to me and say you keep dying to X mechanic in Y fight I could look at a vod or a log and tell you what you need to do differently to get past that with 100%. If I tell you I can't catch Ruby Dragon is there anything you can tell me that will ensure that I 100% have one at the end of a window?

[Sir_Tonberry]

I genuinely don’t believe you. Just look at how many bug fixes top has had, the shield kill in p2s, the bad tuning of damage vs timeline vs job output. Not to mention how trivial it is to get above 50 with remotely current gear on any job in normal. You don’t need pots, you don’t need food, just hit the boss and get purple or higher. There was also no mention of cheating.

You also completely ignored posts earlier in the thread explaining how fishing isn’t just rng to make your ill-informed argument so why retread ground you’ve already presumably seen?

You thought I ignored a comment so instead of just linking to it, copying it or attempting to make an argument for your POV, you decide to look me up on fflogs, and publicly cast aspersions on a simple DSR? Are you completely mental or something? In any case the examples I listed are tools and actions available to a player before resorting to exploits if you are struggling in ultimate in response to your "sarcastic" jibe that ultimate was flawed. The context was clear. Also for the TOP examples you gave those are bugs I can't believe that I need to say this but if content is bug then all talk of it being fair or flawed is off. That kinda seems like common sense.

[Limecat]

I very much want them to bring back unique desynths for glam items on some of the big fish. I also want them to more broadly spread around the crystal types you get from desynthing, instead of 95% of all fish giving up water with only a few small pockets of the other elements(to the extent that fishing becomes just as viable as MIN/BTN for crystal farm). Additionally, we need to be able to desynth the fish that are used as custom deliveries; some of those are the only common source of fish in post-MSQ iLvl ranges, but you can't desynth them so you're stuck scrounging for advanced big fish to level on. Beyond that, I want them to go through and make every single fish compatible with the aquariums.

[AngelCheese77]

I wish fish and other aquatic creatures brought up were used in more recipes. I end up desynthing them all pretty much

[fulminating]

12.5% of the time it's 100% down to you. It doesn't matter how good your party members are they're still outside of your control. Tea dolls spring to mind, hoping one doesn't get nuked by a crit. 116 towers completely negating mitigation management for the last phase doesn't seem intended either. re insanity: very possibly, I'm certain I saw a post of yours mentioning a content creator in that other thread earlier, but it's completely different looking now.

The only time you are guaranteed not to get a fish despite being there for the correct conditions is when it's bugged, such as aquamaton the other month when they added new fish to its hole for the relic rod and accidentally broke something. You still have not explained why think you are entitled to catch the fish just for showing up at an ordained time or weather. You have not explained what or why the buttons other than cast would exist on a fisher with no RNG. Look at how miserable botanist and miner are - just artificial busywork running in a circle clicking, scarcely a step up from island sanctuary. You want to tear out the core of fisher and replace it with what exactly?