Red Mages: How do you feel about the symmetry of Black and White magic?

[LilimoLimomo]

Overall I think Red Mage is a solid and fun class, but the one thing about it that feels lackluster to me is the perfect symmetry between Black and White, where for every Black spell I have a White spell that is exactly the same, just that it generates white mana instead of black mana. And to me, that's a bit disappointing, as I wish the class defined by taking these two very different schools of magic and wielding them both was able to give each school a distinct personality, rather than simply framing it as Thunder and Fire being the polar opposites of Aero and Stone.

But that's just one player's opinion. How do the Red Mages in the audience feel?

[Post]

I thought it was fine when it was introduced. The gimmick of the class was more about building to spend the melee combo and fun with dual cast while the balance aspect and proc chances on fire/stone were more just to manage.

As the job has progressed though, especially with Acceleration's EW changes and the slower build if each mana type it's not really the same as it felt before so I feel there could be some room to make it more interesting.

Especially after PVP's take on black and white mana as stances. I don't think there's room for THAT in PvE, but the spells are distinct for more than just a means to the melee combo there. Given SMN's self survivability I don't see why RDM couldn't also heal those close to Verholy's impact or put up a self Stoneskin with Verstone or whatever.

[VentVanitas]

I do indeed feel like that the mage part of Red Mage does feel a little neglected, especially when Dualcast has been a huge draw to the job in previous versions of it in the FF series. It would be cool to see some variety in function for spells.

That's just my personal opinion though of course, because the truth is that XIV RDM is not a """traditional""" Red Mage and probably never will be. The premise of a jack-of-all-trades wizard that uses both White/Black magic does not really work in XIV which has focused its combat on instanced boss encounters with a rigid trinity role system. Not to say that trying to make a balance/middle ground is a futile effort of course, but more so that XIV has made it clear on what it wants its own Red Mage to be, which seems to be a magic musketeer duelist with some support elements.

[Connor]

because the truth is that XIV RDM is not a """traditional""" Red Mage and probably never will be.

This is unfortunately true of almost every job in the game with some few exceptions (i.e Black Mage, Dragoon). Sadly, anyone coming to ffxiv expecting ‘traditional’ final fantasy jobs is going to be extremely disappointed.

For Red Mage itself I agree that it feels more like a ‘magic swordsman’ than a ‘Jack-of-all-trades’ magic user. The melee combo already feels fun to use, so I’d like to see it using more actual magic (in whatever way that turns out to be lol)

[Raikai]

It's funny that the PVP version of RDM actually does have what the OP asks for - two completely distinct functionalities. Not just with RDM, but a lot of the 'job fantasy' is way more realized with other job's respective PVP variations, and that's even in spite of PVP having a fraction of the actions available to the PVE counterparts.

I would say that this speaks volumes on how the cemented and homogenized pve combat system kind of falls flat when it comes to represent a job fantasy both in visuals but also in engaging mechanics.

[Mostly_Raxus]

I love how RDM currently plays, its fun, intutive and a good spread of keys without being 3 actions bars full.
only down side is it feels like the mobile could use a bump..

as far a "uniqueness" in the different magic schools, what do you expect? its a mmorpg, you are limited by what this genera is sadly, everything has to stay in the mold, so you basically get to be direct damage or dot. most they could do is what blm does the black magic can eat mana and white regain it i guess.

[LilimoLimomo]

as far a "uniqueness" in the different magic schools, what do you expect? its a mmorpg, you are limited by what this genera is sadly, everything has to stay in the mold

Oh, I certainly don't think that's the case; there's plenty they could do to mix it up, like having Vercure generate white mana or having Fire and Stone have different cast times/damage amounts/mana generation so that, for example, RDM's needed to cast 1.5 x as many White spells for each Black spell. A lack of symmetry would just make White and Black magic not feel exactly the same, as opposed to now where for the most part casting is "left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot".

None of that is to say that the things I mentioned are better, just that there are certainly different things they could do if they chose to.

[Iscah]

Oh, I certainly don't think that's the case; there's plenty they could do to mix it up, like having Vercure generate white mana or having Fire and Stone have different cast times/damage amounts/mana generation so that, for example, RDM's needed to cast 1.5 x as many White spells for each Black spell.

The rhythm and symmetry of RDM spells appeals to me, and it feels awkward and unpleasant when they are out of sync, as they are in early dungeons or the awkward gap in the 60s where you have Flare but not Holy.

Deliberate imbalance would be odd lore-wise, and arbitrary imbalance isn't really any more exciting than arbitrary balance.

[Renathras]

The rhythm and symmetry of RDM spells appeals to me, and it feels awkward and unpleasant when they are out of sync, as they are in early dungeons or the awkward gap in the 60s where you have Flare but not Holy.

Deliberate imbalance would be odd lore-wise, and arbitrary imbalance isn't really any more exciting than arbitrary balance.

Agree with this. I like the even back and forth. I think the only thing I might change is making Vercure give Mana (either White Mana or, if they think that's imbalanced somehow, make it like Jolt/Impact where it gives the same amount of both, though that would be weird). [Okay, my one other complaint is why the AOE spells are "backwards" from the single target; Impact should be the quick cast like Jolt, not Aero/Thunder 2 spells...]

I find the even keel of RDM to be pretty chill and it's what makes it so friendly to players picking it up.

Yes, yes it is.

No, no it's not.

The problem with subjective statements is they aren't factual. It's different from person to person. "My favorite color is blue. I think blue is pretty." "No it isn't. Blue is ugly. And it isn't your favorite color." Deliberate balance is just as or more exciting than deliberate imbalance to a lot of people. A lot of people enjoy RDM and would like it less if it was deliberately imbalanced.

.

EDIT:

Though all that said, when they first announced it - recall this was back in HW - I remember thinking it sounded like WHM. A Job that has some healing magic and some damage spells, just also with a bit of melee. I remembered wondering briefly if it could be a new healer Job with the White Magic spells for healing and the Black Magic spells for its damage, so using Fire/Ice/Thunder instead of Stone/Aero/Fluid Aura somehow, along with some melee attacks. Granted, it turned out not to be that at all, but I do remember the possibility being interesting to me. Especially since there aren't THAT many Jobs to draw from other FF games for healer slots, considering most FF games have "White Mage" and make it so good at healing that you just...don't really have anything else other than sometimes having advanced forms of it like Sage or Mystic or the like, with the odd White Mage-adjacent bit healers like Chemist.

(Of course, Sage is normally an advanced version of Red Mage...so we're all kinds of goofy, lol)

[AmiableApkallu]

Oh, I certainly don't think that's the case; there's plenty they could do to mix it up…

When I first started FFXIV, back when post-ShB was current, I was prepared to find out how all the casters with elementally-aspected spells would actually function in practice. As it turns out… elemental affinities are all but non-existent.