I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Seraphor]

As for Hagakure - that's possibly one of the most important SAM skills to make your rotation go smooth and makes SAM one of few jobs that can choose between 3 vastly different GCD speed, without any significant modifications to your rotation, I really don't know how did you find out it has no use.

Why would you ever sacrifice a Midari for another Shinten?
Maybe for a Senei, but there's no shortage of Kenki, is there...

[Mikey_R]

Why would you ever sacrifice a Midari for another Shinten?
Maybe for a Senei, but there's no shortage of Kenki, is there...

You don't sacrifice a whole Midare, you sacrifice a seal, which you obtained from either your 2 combo or your 3 combo. By delaying your rotation, it enables you to better line up the 2 minute window to get the most damage possible in the timeframe. AKA, lose some damage early to gain later.

[Deo14]

You don't sacrifice a whole Midare, you sacrifice a seal, which you obtained from either your 2 combo or your 3 combo. By delaying your rotation, it enables you to better line up the 2 minute window to get the most damage possible in the timeframe. AKA, lose some damage early to gain later.

There's serious overlap of people who don't think Kaiten was a big deal, and people who don't even know how to play SAM.

[Shurrikhan]

Why would you ever sacrifice a Midari for another Shinten?
Maybe for a Senei, but there's no shortage of Kenki, is there...

Now, only for indirect reasons, and it's generally a would-be too-early Higan or a useless Tenka that's being "sacrificed" by Hagakure in order to keep one's burst loop synced to raid buffs.


That said, when it was a DPS increase to do so (in Stormblood), you would. Midare didn't offer as much damage over SAM's appgcd at the time as would 2.4 Shinten casts. Simple as that.

And that was, despite the clunkiness of Tsubame-Gaeshi per 60s relative to Hagakure per 40s as your rotational burst loop, part of why many preferred Shadowbringers SAM over Stormblood SAM: having an infrequent extra Iaijutsu felt more "Samurai" to most than... more Shinten spam, even if the extra mobility and APM Hagakure offered at the time was well liked (and that mechanic allowed one up to 3 GCDs of flex, instead of 0 GCDs, still giving reason to optimize one's loop without making it absurdly punishing to hit a ping spike at the wrong moment).


Now remove the ability to buff Iaijutsu casts by 50%, replacing it with Shinten spam, and it gets obvious why many wouldn't be a fan of that idea.)

EDIT:

EW spoiled the melee players, If you don't roll out the red carpet for them they'll make a lot of noise.
I suggest you make a new Kaiten thread to make amends and they may just deign to forgive you for your sleight against them.

You do realize the ones wanting Kaiten back are also usually the ones pushing for more "Melee"-like gameplay, such as tighter boss hitboxes, harder uptime management, conal AoEs that thereby require movement into and out of mob packs, etc., right?

While a buff to gameplay, it's objectively more effort for no increase in reward.

[kayll]

You do realize the ones wanting Kaiten back are also usually the ones pushing for more "Melee"-like gameplay, such as tighter boss hitboxes, harder uptime management, conal AoEs that thereby require movement into and out of mob packs, etc., right?

While a buff to gameplay, it's objectively more effort for no increase in reward.

Not sure why you quoted/replied in a post before my own, weird.

Pushing? Where?
All I see is posts about this same tired zombie of a subject, topic after topic.
Where is the post that says "I was almost gonna play FF14 again, but then I realized my melee could hit the boss from across the room"?
The person at fanfest didn't have a 25 yard long katana prop, they had a "bring back kaiten" poster. (though it would have been funny)
The people with obnoxious Kaiten signatures never had "Shrink boss hitboxes!!!" signatures.
No threads about "Revert 6.05 changes!!", even square shrugged it off and said whatever despite the changes being literal miscommunication between the staff.

[ZiraZ]

It's ok Crit dungeons fixed everything
small hitboxes with lots and lots of uptime management for melee
now we need to fix Kaiten coming back

[Shurrikhan]

[There are] No threads about "Revert 6.05 changes!!", even square shrugged it off and said whatever despite the changes being literal miscommunication between the staff.

Celest, you around?? Still got the list of the dozen or so threads requesting reverts to 6.0 or late-Shadowbringers gameplay (w/ small additions/adjustments)?

The people with obnoxious Kaiten signatures never had "Shrink boss hitboxes!!!" signatures.

Riiigght... because signatures are the place to put in-depth, highly-contextualized feedback, rather than typically being best used synecdochally through some salient example?

Where is the post that says "I was almost gonna play FF14 again, but then I realized my melee could hit the boss from across the room"?

Look at any of the threads about gameplay that actually have Melee posting in them, instead of just ranged DPS pushing for the removal of all positionals and range constraints so that Melee could finally appeal to them (instead of, you know, playing the shit that was intended for those who like neither positionals nor range constraints)?

Hell, just go to any WAR thread that so much as mentions Overpower, and you'll see SAMs empathizing with the loss of conal AoEs and the movement having both conals and radials used to provide.

Again, not every "QoL buff" is well-received. Many prefer active gameplay over that value being provided for free.

[kayll]

Look at any of the threads about gameplay that actually have Melee posting in them, instead of just ranged DPS pushing for the removal of all positionals and range constraints so that Melee could finally appeal to them (instead of, you know, playing the shit that was intended for those who like neither positionals nor range constraints)?

What? How does that even make sense, ranged players are the cause of positional and uptime management being removed from melee, how do you figure that?
That is like straight up conspiracy talk tbh

Hell, just go to any WAR thread that so much as mentions Overpower, and you'll see SAMs empathizing with the loss of conal AoEs and the movement having both conals and radials used to provide.

Uhhh ,SAM must have it pretty good if one the complaints you are mentioning with is the shape of an AoE attack you don't use in any meaningful content.

Again, not every "QoL buff" is well-received. Many prefer active gameplay over that value being provided for free.

Yet strangely,some how,SAM make more noise than SMN.

[Shurrikhan]

What? How does that even make sense, ranged players are the cause of positional and uptime management being removed from melee, how do you figure that?

I didn't. Those are your words, not mine.

You asked for where you'd see SAMs complaining about other simplifications of their job and/or melee-range play outside of Kaiten threads / threads that mention Kaiten. You can find them almost anywhere other jobs complain about simplifications to their job, especially if those simplifications affected something specific to melee-range play.

Uhhh ,SAM must have it pretty good if one the complaints you are mentioning with is the shape of an AoE attack you don't use in any meaningful content.

You ask for what other complaints they'd have that'd stand apart from removal of Kaiten (which itself bundled complaints surrounding the rationale for its removal or what the "fix" failed to fix -- bundled into it (e.g., that the problem wasn't action bloat, but rather button bloat, which would have made Shoha/Shoha II, Ikishoten/Namikiri, and/or Guren/Senei button-swaps/consolidations a better solution).

Since Kaiten was a keystone component around which quite a few different considerations/gameplay components intersected, that doesn't leave much.

• That the gauge was made basically irrelevant outside of being a number of Shinten charges? Directly, if not solely, caused by the removal of Kaiten.
• Lack of gauge margining? Directly, if not solely, caused by the removal of Kaiten.
• Continued button bloat? Caused by the devs misunderstanding prior complaints of "unnecessary button bloat" as "action bloat" and thereby removing Kaiten instead of allowing skills solely available after using another CD to take the button-position of that CD, etc.

Yet strangely,some how,SAM make more noise than SMN.

Probably because the one at least offered something in place of what it removed. The other just left that void.

[kayll]

I didn't. Those are your words, not mine.

Never once did I mention ranged players at all, are you trying to extrapolate something that isn't there? You may need to reread my message.
My issue is the extremely selective complaints and hyper focus of complaints of Kaiten when there is more wrong with the melee role in general, Its been over a year, its stale and its played out.
There are no recent threads about these issues because these issues are mostly beneficial to the class, Yet every other day there is a NEW Kaiten thread, repeating the exact same things, you all may as well make a leaflet.
And before you retort with "adding Kaiten back would add complexity and difficulty", is "Press X before Y, every time or you are trolling" really the complexity you absolutely MUST have in the game?
Is the bar that low?
I get losing skills sucks but a borderline redundant "next skill do big more damage" skill?

You ask for what other complaints they'd have that'd stand apart from removal of Kaiten.

Never did that either, I know what the complaints are, I asked where are they, Why are they so few?
Yet there are 5 threads on the first page about Kaiten, and even then, This seems like an extremely minor complaint, Cause again how important are your AoE attacks in meaningful content?

Dunno if you are trying to put words in my mouth or just reading into my previous message way too much but it was pretty cut I like to think.
I didn't give my two cents about Kaiten in general until it just became annoying spam of SAM acting like its the end of the world for a year straight.